dep frequency within the NY Tracon

[keith]

I fly out of N07, a non-towered field just outside the KCDW Delta airspace. When departing IFR, most of the time, the dep freq is 119.20, one of the TRACON freqs.  Other times, the dep freq in the IFR clnc is Caldwell tower.

So, you depart on the CTAF 122.80, then swap to CDW twr, who, with some luck will know what you're up to, and are then sent to the dep freq.

My question is this...under what circumstances will the dep freq be CDW TWR, vs the TRACON? 

Each time I've talked to CDW, they've never had any traffic advisories for me (not surprising since they can't release N07 and CDW deps at the same time), so I'm not sure what the value is in being sent to CDW TWR freq.

I'm not complaining about this, just curious what makes them decide to use one frequency over another.

[mkop]

Looking at the NY TAC, it seems like if you depart rwy 19, you will be flying almost immediately into the CDW class Delta airspace. Regardless of whether they have anything to say to you, you must be in two-way radio contact to enter the airspace. Unless I'm missing something...

[tyketto]

Keith,

to go along with mkop's response, is there a chance that when you are flying IFR and departing 19, that by the time you hit KCDW's Delta airspace you won't be above the ceiling of the Delta? If so, that could be why they're sending you to CDW on departure, letting them handle your Delta services, then getting you to N90.

Departing runway 1 would always get you to the TRACON, at least from looking at the TAC.

BL.

[KSYR-pjr]

Regardless of whether they have anything to say to you, you must be in two-way radio contact to enter the airspace. Unless I'm missing something...

Actually it is pretty common, at least in the Northeast US, for a surrounding ATC facility to work transient or inbound IFR aircraft for class D towers, at least up to a point.   There is no requirement that the aircraft actually has to be handed off to class D simply for "two-way radio contact"  (this for transient aircraft, not landing IFR aircraft, of course).   

Based on my understanding (and experience - any ATC folks please correct)  the coordination happens between the surrounding ATC facility and the tower off frequency (land line?).

[keith]

The ODP from the airport only allows for deps off rwy 19, and it's runway heading to 1000ft. You definitely transition the delta.  IFR deps and arrivals appear to be coordinated with CDW twr by TRACON either way.

I've been vectored through the CDW delta during a visual into Lincoln Park. Prior to IFR cancellation, I asked if I could continue through the Delta and the TRACON guy (sounding a bit annoyed) told me it was already coordinated. (See this video: http://keith.tristesse.com/object/approaches_with_stuart.html?showVideos=true during the last interaction with ATC prior to arrival back home)

The question remains...why is the departure frequency sometimes TRACON, and other times, CDW twr? 

[jmcmanna]

Just a guess, do you get assigned a departure frequency when CDW is reporting weather less than basic VFR, and CDW Tower frequency when they are reporting VFR conditions?  I ask because many class D surface areas disappear when the weather goes below basic VFR minima.  If that is the case, CDW tower wouldn't have any airspace, so you'd go directly to the radar facility.

If that's not it, then maybe some controllers coordinate IFR departures off N07 to go straight to the departure frequency, and some prefer not to.  Where RV1 and I work, some controllers would rather give their airspace away to another controller than talk to some airplanes, and other controllers want to talk to every airplane that comes within a mile and a half of the boundary. 

Those are my educated guesses. 

[davolijj]

I've been vectored through the CDW delta during a visual into Lincoln Park. Prior to IFR cancellation, I asked if I could continue through the Delta and the TRACON guy (sounding a bit annoyed) told me it was already coordinated. (See this video: http://keith.tristesse.com/object/approaches_with_stuart.html?showVideos=true during the last interaction with ATC prior to arrival back home)

The controller probably sounded annoyed because when you're on an IFR flight plan and receiving radar service by ATC it's not your responsibility to make sure you're cleared through the Delta....it's the controller's who is providing you service and he knows where the airspace is.

The question remains...why is the departure frequency sometimes TRACON, and other times, CDW twr? 

I'm guessing the weather was VFR at the time or there's no way the tower would have worked you.  It probably depends on who the controller was in the tower at the time.  VFR towers aren't really intended to work IFR transitions through the surface area, they're intended for IFR/VFR arrivals and departures to the primary airport the surface area surrounds.  That said, if I was working in the tower and had a pattern full of airplanes which could be impacted by the N07 departure, I'd probably want to be talking to the aircraft.  As a tower controller I'd have a much better picture of the traffic than the approach controller.  There may even be a provision in the facility's letter of agreement which provides procedures for such a scenario.  But as far as the inconsistancy between departure frequencies, I'd chalk that up to the controllers working the positions and the traffic conditions at the airport at the time the clearance was delivered.


[/quote]

[jmcmanna]

To update what I wrote above, I looked up the CDW/N90 LOA.  It does state that N07 departures are supposed to call CDW Tower.  When N07 departures aren't a factor with local traffic around CDW, CDW will tell the pilot to contact departure ont he appropriate frequency.  The LOA also says that CDW Tower is authorized to provide visual separation between N07 IFR departures and CDW IFR arrivals.

So, if CDW is VFR, you will talk to them before NY Tracon because they're providing visual separation with CDWs IFR arrivals.  If there aren't any inbounds to CDW, they probably coordinate with CDW tower that N07 departures will go straight to Departure.

[mkop]

Regardless of whether they have anything to say to you, you must be in two-way radio contact to enter the airspace. Unless I'm missing something...

Actually it is pretty common, at least in the Northeast US, for a surrounding ATC facility to work transient or inbound IFR aircraft for class D towers, at least up to a point.   There is no requirement that the aircraft actually has to be handed off to class D simply for "two-way radio contact"  (this for transient aircraft, not landing IFR aircraft, of course).

AIUI, the a/c does not need to be in contact with the tower, but he does need to be in contact with ATC. It seems to me that receiving a departure clearance (by telephone, right?) would not qualify for that.

When flying from an uncontrolled field, how soon after takeoff do you have to contact departure? It seems that because of that variable, in general receiving a departure frequency would not be enough to let you enter the delta.

I'm not sure if I'm being coherent here - I'm really tired. I don't think I'm disagreeing with anyone, just pointing something out.

Disclaimer: I'm not a RW pilot, I'm just a VATSIM controller who is interested by ATC and has read up on it a bit.

Michael

[KSYR-pjr]

I'm not sure if I'm being coherent here - I'm really tired. I don't think I'm disagreeing with anyone, just pointing something out.

That very well could be it.  I was only pointing out in general that there is no requirement for IFR aircraft to have to contact class D towers strictly for radio contact.  Specifically, though, your point is well taken.

[keith]

The controller probably sounded annoyed because when you're on an IFR flight plan and receiving radar service by ATC it's not your responsibility to make sure you're cleared through the Delta....it's the controller's who is providing you service and he knows where the airspace is.

When I said "prior to IFR cancellation", I meant I was in the process of canceling, which would've left me VFR and about to fly into the Delta airspace.  I agree that while under IFR, you don't have to worry about the airspace.

Regarding the weather distinction, there appears to be no correlation between weather conditions and the dep freq.  I'm going to have to go with this one:

If that's not it, then maybe some controllers coordinate IFR departures off N07 to go straight to the departure frequency, and some prefer not to.

I'm fairly certain that in either case, the N90 controller tells CDW local that there will be an IFR launching out of N07. CDW must then either be saying "you keep him" or "send him my way".  More often than not, I'm sent to the TRACON freq.

So, if CDW is VFR, you will talk to them before NY Tracon because they're providing visual separation with CDWs IFR arrivals.  If there aren't any inbounds to CDW, they probably coordinate with CDW tower that N07 departures will go straight to Departure.

That does sound completely logical, and in the spirit of the LOA that mentioned. There was one occasion, though, where the ceiling was 800ft and I was sent to CDW tower.  There was no way he was going to be visually separating anything, except perhaps for any wreckage that might come floating back down  

I'm guessing that this is a subtle nuance in the LOA that isn't executed the same every single time.  Again, no biggie....a dep freq is a dep freq

It's been a useful discussion, thx.

[n07cfi]

When I depart IFR out of N07, 9.5 times out of 10 I will be told to contact NY Approach after departure.  Of the 0.5 times I was specifically asked to contact KCDW as the initial freq (departing in VFR conditions but under IFR/void time) , when I called tower they sounded like they had no idea why I was calling them and just tell me to switch to Approach.