Author Topic: Polar HF  (Read 1435 times)

Offline FL85300

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Polar HF
« on: February 07, 2018, 10:23:38 AM »
Hi! I have some questions regarding HF feeds, to be more precise polar HF. I read a thread from 2014 in which a person
with the username InterpreDemon who broadcasts HF said that the HF feed CAR-A 6577/5550 was able to recieve polar HF
during certain times of the day. The main purpose of the feed as I understand it is to broadcast Caribbean traffic.
I'm not certain if InterpreDemon still modifies the feed from time to time to make it possible to listen to polar HF?
I have been monitoring the feed but I only get Caribbean traffic no matter time of day. Any input would be welcome.

If it is of any help I would be willing to put up an HF feed of my own to increase coverage.
Although i would probably need instructions on how to.

Grateful for answers!



Offline JetScan1

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Re: Polar HF
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2018, 02:00:05 PM »
The two primary Polar frequencies used by Gander are 8891 and 11279. Both frequencies are covered by LiveATC feeds. If conditions are good you should be able to hear polar flights on these radios.

https://www.liveatc.net/search/f.php?freq=8891

https://www.liveatc.net/search/f.php?freq=11279

JS

Offline FL85300

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Re: Polar HF
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2018, 07:22:52 AM »
Thank you for your response!

I have been listening to the frequencies which you listed quite a lot. There is indeed polar traffic on 8891 which is
very interesting.

Caught one polar flight which was told to contact Murmansk after a certain point.
Is there radio silence after that initial contact under normal circumstances until the flight contacts,
in this case Murmansk? Or is there any position reports before that?
I caught some flights going to North America on polar routes, which were told
to contact Edmonton center as their first VHF contact. I suppose the frequency is sent to them via CPDLC.
Would you have any idea of the frequency they use? Is it by any chance covered by LiveAtc?

6628/11279 is a frequency I can't wrap my head around as I mostly seem to be able to get regular
atlantic traffic. Sometimes I get a flight north of Alaska but very rarely.
 Would you know if all flight over Alaska from China and Japan and vice versa use 11279?

There are ARINC facilities in JFK/LGA which give out HF frequencies, but I only seem to hear some Jetblue flights
getting their HF frequencies on there from time to time. Not sure if any polar flights contact any of those frequencies
to get their HF frequencies or not.

It is truly quite incredible the range that HF offers even if its not as widely used these days with the advent of CPDLC.

LiveATC Discussion Forums

Re: Polar HF
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2018, 07:22:52 AM »

Offline JetScan1

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Re: Polar HF
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2018, 11:18:18 AM »
FL85300,

Quote
Is there radio silence after that initial contact under normal circumstances until the flight contacts, in this case Murmansk? Or is there any position reports before that?

There are position reports required but most of the time they are sent using satellite datalink (ADS/CPDLC). Although satellite coverage in the high Arctic seems to be spotty in some areas and you will on occasion hear flights giving full voice position reports on HF if the datalink is not working.

Quote
I caught some flights going to North America on polar routes, which were told to contact Edmonton center as their first VHF contact. I suppose the frequency is sent to them via CPDLC. Would you have any idea of the frequency they use? Is it by any chance covered by LiveAtc?

Some Edmonton Center High Arctic sectors are covered on the LiveATC "CYFB RDO/FIC/Edmonton Ctr" feed. The sector configuration changes throughout the day depending on traffic so you may or may not hear the area you are looking for depending on the route and time of day. Also most of the time you will only hear the controller, unless they turn on the frequency cross-coupling which they don't seem to do very often up there. And as Edmonton is using CPDLC all you will mostly hear is just the initial check in on VHF.

https://www.liveatc.net/search/?icao=yfb

Quote
There are ARINC facilities in JFK/LGA which give out HF frequencies, but I only seem to hear some Jetblue flights getting their HF frequencies on there from time to time. Not sure if any polar flights contact any of those frequencies to get their HF frequencies or not.

No you won't hear any polar flights on those JFK/LGA ARINC frequencies. Edmonton (on that LiveATC feed mentioned above) gives out the Gander HF frequencies via CPDLC, although on very rare occasions I have heard them do it using voice. However for some reason for eastbound flights entering Iceland's airspace it is common to hear Edmonton assign the HF frequencies using voice. Iceland usually uses 8864 and 4675 and some on 11279 (8864 is covered on LiveATC).

https://www.liveatc.net/search/f.php?freq=8864

Quote
6628/11279 is a frequency I can't wrap my head around as I mostly seem to be able to get regular atlantic traffic. Sometimes I get a flight north of Alaska but very rarely. Would you know if all flight over Alaska from China and Japan and vice versa use 11279?

Gander covers that area north of Alaska and will use either 11279 or 8891 depending on HF conditions. The reception on that LiveATC radio covering 11279 is not very good compared to some of the other ones and I don't know how often it's actually tuned to 11279 ?

FYI You can hear polar flights over northern Alaska within VHF range talking with Anchorage Center on the LiveATC Deadhorse feed. Depending on the route you can hear them get handed off to Gander on 8891 or 11279.

https://www.liveatc.net/search/?icao=pasc

If you didn't know about it already there is a website where you can tune individual HF radios all over the world. Some with very good arctic coverage depending on conditions.

http://www.sdr.hu/

Also info. on polar ops and frequencies here ...

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/service_units/systemops/ato_intl/documents/Arctic_ATM_Contingency_Plan/Arctic_ATM_Contingency_Plan_1Ed-%202011-12-09.pdf

Let us know what you hear, especially any reports listening to Murmansk, Magadan or Bodo.

JS

LiveATC Discussion Forums

Re: Polar HF
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2018, 11:18:18 AM »

Offline Rob K

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Re: Polar HF
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2018, 09:39:40 PM »
Thank you for your response!

I have been listening to the frequencies which you listed quite a lot. There is indeed polar traffic on 8891 which is
very interesting.

Caught one polar flight which was told to contact Murmansk after a certain point.
Is there radio silence after that initial contact under normal circumstances until the flight contacts,
in this case Murmansk? Or is there any position reports before that?
I caught some flights going to North America on polar routes, which were told
to contact Edmonton center as their first VHF contact. I suppose the frequency is sent to them via CPDLC.
Would you have any idea of the frequency they use? Is it by any chance covered by LiveAtc?

6628/11279 is a frequency I can't wrap my head around as I mostly seem to be able to get regular
atlantic traffic. Sometimes I get a flight north of Alaska but very rarely.
 Would you know if all flight over Alaska from China and Japan and vice versa use 11279?

There are ARINC facilities in JFK/LGA which give out HF frequencies, but I only seem to hear some Jetblue flights
getting their HF frequencies on there from time to time. Not sure if any polar flights contact any of those frequencies
to get their HF frequencies or not.

It is truly quite incredible the range that HF offers even if its not as widely used these days with the advent of CPDLC.

The site owner, Dave, runs one of the 8891 feeds and a HAM friend of mine in Indianapolis runs separate 8891 and 11279 feeds from his remote location in Nova Scotia.

The old days of Cambridge Bay Radio, Churchill Radio and more recently, Arctic Radio are now all but a distant memory and the entire area from roughly 75N to 90N is controlled by Gander Radio these days (ignoring the Edmonton VHF segments).  The problem is that Gander uses 2 or 3 different transmitters and depending on which one they're using at the time dictates whether you'll be able to hear them.  If they're using the transmitter to work the normal NAT traffic then you'll hear the comms but if they're using the others that point in the opposite direction then Gander is often completely inaudible which is highly annoying, but that's how it is.  There used to be another feed for 8891 over in Seattle which due to its location picked up the comms that you couldn't hear from the east coast radios but we don't have that luxury anymore.  Suffice to say that listening to 8891 and 11279 is very much pot luck based on which transmitter is in use and also the propagation to a lesser extent.  This afternoon 11279 was really struggling and I had to change to a UK based SDR to hear the Gander side of the comms.  There's also a little used SDR in Iceland on sdr.hu which sometimes works OK for 11279 through the day but the antenna there isn't fantastic and if often suffers from some nasty interference.

To add to JetScan's comments about Iceland above, it's very unlikely you'll hear Iceland on the 8864, 8891 or 11279 through the daytime because of the distance and propagation.  Iceland uses 8864 as primary through the night time but LATC doesn't cover that freq during those times because there isn't much traffic and it's better deployed on one of the NAT freqs for the eastbound traffic to Europe.  11279 from Nova Scotia runs 0900-2200z iirc.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 11:45:30 PM by Rob K »

Offline FL85300

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Re: Polar HF
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2018, 07:05:16 AM »
Thank you so much JetScan1! You're knowledge in the field is incredible. I did not know about the website sdr.hu
Loving the site so far! I will definitely keep you updated if I hear anything more on Murmansk, Magadan or Bodo.

Rob K, thank you! Lots of information much of which I had no idea of before.

Hopefully we can keep in touch.

Offline JetScan1

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Re: Polar HF
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2018, 12:53:59 PM »
I've been listening for Polar flights the last few days. Here are some reception reports.

2018.02.08, 2104 UTC
UAL086, EWR-PEK, Bodo 4675
Aircraft position - 79N000E
KiwiSDR G8JNJ South West UK
Aircraft reception 3/3 - position report "79N000E at 2103Z eta 80N020E at 2130Z next PIREL, fuel 137.0, selcal BSHK"
Bodo reception 4/4 - "[selcal tone], squawk 0212, monitor VHF 127.725, at PIREL contact Murmansk 8950 primary 11390 secondary"

2018.02.08, 2056 UTC
AFL122, SVO-JFK, Bodo 4675
Aircraft position - approaching NORVA (68 05 50N 010 57 41E)   (initial call on HF)
KiwiSDR G8JNJ South West UK
Aircraft reception 4/4 - "request selcal check"
Bodo reception 4/4 - "[selcal tone], crossing 71N000W call Iceland 8864 primary 4675 secondary"

2018.02.10, 1855 UTC
ACA045, DEL-YVR, Murmansk 8950
Aircraft position - vicinity LUGOT (72 02 20N 69 48 40E)  (initial call on HF)
KiwiSDR SK3W Fernbo Sweden
Aircraft reception unreadable
Murmansk reception very weak 1/1 - "maintain FL360, selcal, say eta AMODI, report AMODI"

2018.02.10, 2025 UTC
CPA841, JFK-HKG, Iceland 8891
Aircraft position - approaching ABERI (87 30N 032E)
LiveATC Amherst NH USA
Aircraft reception very weak mostly unreadable
Iceland reception 3/3 - selcals aircraft requesting position report, readback "87 30N 000E at 2017Z eta ABERI 2027Z next RAVUL, at ABERI contact Murmansk 8950 primary 11390 secondary"

2018.02.09, 2156 UTC
AAL289, ORD-PVG, Gander 8891
Aircraft position - vincinty 75N105W (initial call on HF)
LiveATC Amherst NH USA
Aircraft reception unreadable
Gander reception 3/3 - reaback "CPDLC, call me over RESUM this frequency, selcal DRBM, [selcal tone], 4675 or 11279 backup"

2018.02.09, 2317 UTC
AAL289, ORD-PVG, Gander 8891
Aircraft position - RESUM (84 14 45N 141W)
LiveATC Amherst NH USA
Aircraft reception unreadable
Gander reception 3/3 - readback "position RESUM at 2317Z at FL360 eta RAMEL 2337Z next PETUL, at RAMEL contact Magadan 11390 primary 8837 secondary"

There still seems to be a large "hole" over the Polar region where satellite reception is spotty or not available, so you still hear Gander and Iceland using HF voice for a lot of these flights. For now anyway as I seem to recall reading about some new satellites to be launched to cover this area in the near future.

JS

Offline Rob K

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Re: Polar HF
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2018, 11:44:24 PM »
Comm strength has been particularly poor on 8891 and 11279 feeds from Nova Scotia this past few days.  Gander has been weak to inaudible for the most part although Dave's 8891 feed from New Hampshire has faired a little better.

Offline Rob K

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Re: Polar HF
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2018, 11:53:21 PM »
Try the Kongsfjord radio on sdr.hu (top of Norway) for Iceland 8864, Bodo 4675 and Murmansk 8950.  I've had very good results from it.

The G8JNJ SDR on the same website is also good for Gander 11279 and 8891 generally speaking (although note my cautions above about their transmitters).  If that SDR is full (which it often is), try the Bowland Forest one on the NW UK coast.

Offline FL85300

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Re: Polar HF
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2018, 08:56:43 AM »
Listening to the PASC feed at 1330Z I caught EVA035 being handed over to Magadan on primary 133.0 or 135.4, secondary HF
5550. So it seems that they have VHF over at Magadan? Atleast on certain times during the day. Been trying to tune in
to Magadan on HF but so far I have had no luck.

EDIT: 1433Z Finally heard Magadan on HF 5550, flight CAL007.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 09:37:48 AM by FL85300 »

Offline JetScan1

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Re: Polar HF
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2018, 02:45:58 PM »
RobK,

Quote
Try the Kongsfjord radio

Thanks for the SDR tips, I'll check them out.

FL85300,

Quote
So it seems that they have VHF over at Magadan?

You can download Russian charts off their AIP website. They are a great reference as they show individual sector boundaries as well as VHF and HF frequencies.

http://www.caiga.ru/common/AirInter/validaip/html/eng.htm

Select/Expand .....

AIP.
ENR Part II. En-Route
ENR 6 En-route Charts
Charts

Charts 16 covers the polar areas and Chart 14 covers polar areas and those southern Magadan VHF sectors.

Quote
Finally heard Magadan on HF 5550, flight CAL007.

Thanks for the report. I've never bothered to monitor those Russian domestic (non Oceanic) HF frequencies. I figured they are rarely used and I don't speak Russian. Interesting that you caught something on 5550, I'll check them out more often. Any further reports appreciated.

JS

Online 777lrf

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Re: Polar HF
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2018, 08:06:28 AM »
Listening to the PASC feed at 1330Z I caught EVA035 being handed over to Magadan on primary 133.0 or 135.4, secondary HF
5550. So it seems that they have VHF over at Magadan? Atleast on certain times during the day. Been trying to tune in
to Magadan on HF but so far I have had no luck.

EDIT: 1433Z Finally heard Magadan on HF 5550, flight CAL007.

where can I hear the HF 5.550 feed?

Offline FL85300

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Re: Polar HF
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2018, 07:38:32 AM »
Listening to the PASC feed at 1330Z I caught EVA035 being handed over to Magadan on primary 133.0 or 135.4, secondary HF
5550. So it seems that they have VHF over at Magadan? Atleast on certain times during the day. Been trying to tune in
to Magadan on HF but so far I have had no luck.

EDIT: 1433Z Finally heard Magadan on HF 5550, flight CAL007.

where can I hear the HF 5.550 feed?


Found a west coast United States feed on SDR. I was lucky to hear anything as signal was weak.

Offline warwickshire_2

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Re: Polar HF
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2018, 04:08:29 PM »
On the Norway receiver in the Arctic, I can hear BODO, Gander, Iceland and Murmansk.

Online 777lrf

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Re: Polar HF
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2018, 02:17:09 PM »
RobK,

Quote
Try the Kongsfjord radio

Thanks for the SDR tips, I'll check them out.

FL85300,

Quote
So it seems that they have VHF over at Magadan?

You can download Russian charts off their AIP website. They are a great reference as they show individual sector boundaries as well as VHF and HF frequencies.

http://www.caiga.ru/common/AirInter/validaip/html/eng.htm

Select/Expand .....

AIP.
ENR Part II. En-Route
ENR 6 En-route Charts
Charts

Charts 16 covers the polar areas and Chart 14 covers polar areas and those southern Magadan VHF sectors.

Quote
Finally heard Magadan on HF 5550, flight CAL007.

Thanks for the report. I've never bothered to monitor those Russian domestic (non Oceanic) HF frequencies. I figured they are rarely used and I don't speak Russian. Interesting that you caught something on 5550, I'll check them out more often. Any further reports appreciated.

JS

Very lost here trying to tune an HF from sdr.hu would like to listen to HF 4.651 Shannon