ILS / LOC Approaches

[Greg01]

Not to nit-pick, but the FAF on an ILS is the glideslope intercept. GS intercept is usually at or near the marker, but it isn't always.

Greg

[MOD] This thread was split from, and refers to "JetBlue wants to play games" [/MOD]

[tyketto]

Not to nit-pick, but the FAF on an ILS is the glideslope intercept. GS intercept is usually at or near the marker, but it isn't always.

Greg

I don't think this is entirely true.

Case in point, ILS 25L at KLAX and ILS 25L at KLAS. For LAX, the IAF is at FUELR, which is 26nm from the field. The outer marker for LAX is LIMMA, which is 7nm out. I can guarantee you'll intercept the glideslope before LIMMA.

Same would suffice for Las Vegas, where PRINO is the IAF for 25L, and that's 21nm out. You'll have both the localizer and glideslope prior to even getting to that fix.

I'll agree it isn't always true, because there may not be an outer, middle, or inner marker for a given ILS approach, such as Vegas. But I'm definitely positive you'll have both LOC and GS before the FAF.

BL.

[Jason]

Not to nit-pick, but the FAF on an ILS is the glideslope intercept. GS intercept is usually at or near the marker, but it isn't always.

Greg

I don't think this is entirely true.

Case in point, ILS 25L at KLAX and ILS 25L at KLAS. For LAX, the IAF is at FUELR, which is 26nm from the field. The outer marker for LAX is LIMMA, which is 7nm out. I can guarantee you'll intercept the glideslope before LIMMA.

Same would suffice for Las Vegas, where PRINO is the IAF for 25L, and that's 21nm out. You'll have both the localizer and glideslope prior to even getting to that fix.

I'll agree it isn't always true, because there may not be an outer, middle, or inner marker for a given ILS approach, such as Vegas. But I'm definitely positive you'll have both LOC and GS before the FAF.

BL.

LIMMA isn't an outer marker though, it's the non-precision (localizer) FAF defined by DME off of the localizer antenna (or SLI R-297 and the localizer course).  Regarding the ILS 25L at Las Vegas, the precision approach FAF is just about at RELIN intersection as noted by the lightning bolt symbol on the profile view.  You can still be vectored way outside of RELIN, but that is still the legal glideslope intercept (as charted).  You can intercept and follow the GS prior to this point, but you must be established on the GS by this point (hence, GS intercept).

I have to agree with Greg on this one.  Most of the precision FAFs (glide slope intercept) occur at or near the outer marker if one exists on the procedure.

[Greg01]

Tyketto,

The ILS 25L into LAX does not have marker beacon system. LIMMA is the FAF for the LOCALIZER 25L approach, not the ILS, hence the maltese cross in the profile view.

The FAF for the ILS is the GS intercept. Now, if you fly the approach as charted (basically ATC gets you established at or inside of HUNDA at 3200, you will capture the GS as charted. However, if they authorize 1900 between HUNDA and LIMMA, then you will pick up the GS at LIMMA. It just so happens with this approach that GS intercept will occur at LIMMA (again, if ATC authorizes 1900).

Again, not so for the LAS approaches. The explanation above for the LAX approach applies to the LAS approach. FAF for the ILS 25L into LAS is the GS intercept (the lightning bolt arrow on the profile view).

Now, I can explain why the LAX approach says: ILS or LOC 25L and the LAS approach only says: ILS 25L yet in still includes LOC only minimums...but it'll have to be tomorrow (have to hit the hay).

Respectfully,
Greg

[Greg01]

Jason, looks like we posted at about the same time.

[Jason]

Now, I can explain why the LAX approach says: ILS or LOC 25L and the LAS approach only says: ILS 25L yet in still includes LOC only minimums...but it'll have to be tomorrow (have to hit the hay).

This question made me think a little, too.  I honestly don't know the official answer, but my guess would be that it would allow the controller to issue a clearance for the localizer approach (ie, "cleared localizer runway 25L approach") rather than a clearance for the ILS with a GS unusable advisory (ie, "cleared ILS runway 25L, glide slope unusable").  I can't think of any TERPS requirements that would reflect a change in the title, but there certainly could be.

[KSYR-pjr]

I have to agree with Greg on this one.  Most of the precision FAFs (glide slope intercept) occur at or near the outer marker if one exists on the procedure.

I'll third this.  For us little retractable gear aircraft pilots, the FAF/glideslope intercept on an ILS is where we drop the gear and transition from the straight and level glideslope intercept altitude to a descent down the glideslope.  Dropping the gear on my Bonanza slows the aircraft from 153 (max gear down speed, or V_le) to 120 knots and, assuming proper power setting, naturally starts a 500 foot a minute descent with the glideslope due to the drag of the gear. 

My understanding is that the now old-fashioned outer marker is tied to the FAF on an ILS because it serves as the pilot's audio cue as to the intercept point.  As pointed out previously, though, most of the outer markers are being decommissioned across the US due primarily to (I believe) the cost savings of not having to maintain them.

[tyketto]

Tyketto,

The ILS 25L into LAX does not have marker beacon system. LIMMA is the FAF for the LOCALIZER 25L approach, not the ILS, hence the maltese cross in the profile view.

Are you sure about that?

http://www.airnav.com/airport/LAX/ils/25L

Outer marker information
                  Type: OUTER MARKER BEACON ONLY
                  Name: LIMMA
              Location: 33-56-53.500N / 118-16-32.200W
                        5.4 nm (32720 ft.) from the approach end of runway 25L

Again, not so for the LAS approaches. The explanation above for the LAX approach applies to the LAS approach. FAF for the ILS 25L into LAS is the GS intercept (the lightning bolt arrow on the profile view).

I'll agree on that, but what I was getting at is that you'll get the GS intercept much further out than that, not just only at the FAF, which is what I think you may have been alluding to before. I've had it pick up out by PRINO and CROWE, which are at least 20DME from the field.

BL.

[Jason]

Are you sure about that?

http://www.airnav.com/airport/LAX/ils/25L

Outer marker information
                  Type: OUTER MARKER BEACON ONLY
                  Name: LIMMA
              Location: 33-56-53.500N / 118-16-32.200W
                        5.4 nm (32720 ft.) from the approach end of runway 25L

The AirNav data is old, it still has the outer marker designation for most of these fixes even though the system no longer exists.  Even if the antenna exists and the system is operational, but unmonitored, legally, it can't be used on the approach because the marker beacon is neither monitored or charted.

Again, not so for the LAS approaches. The explanation above for the LAX approach applies to the LAS approach. FAF for the ILS 25L into LAS is the GS intercept (the lightning bolt arrow on the profile view).

I'll agree on that, but what I was getting at is that you'll get the GS intercept much further out than that, not just only at the FAF, which is what I think you may have been alluding to before. I've had it pick up out by PRINO and CROWE, which are at least 20DME from the field.

BL.

I don't think we're talking about actual GS intercept, we're talking about the ILS (precision approach) FAF, which is the glideslope intercept, as indicated by the location of the lightning bolt on the profile view of the procedure.

[Jason]

I've split this thread from the original, since it doesn't necessarily apply to that discussion.

[KSYR-pjr]

I'll agree on that, but what I was getting at is that you'll get the GS intercept much further out than that, not just only at the FAF, which is what I think you may have been alluding to before. I've had it pick up out by PRINO and CROWE, which are at least 20DME from the field.

When a controller is vectoring an aircraft to an ILS they are descending and vectoring so that the aircraft intercepts the glideslope at or very near the FAF, not some point 20 miles out.  I would need to look it up, but I am not even sure a glideslope indication could be trusted that far out.

[KSYR-pjr]

Found the information about glideslope usability from the US AIM:

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/Chap1/aim0101.html

3. The glide path projection angle is normally adjusted to 3 degrees above horizontal so that it intersects the MM at about 200 feet and the OM at about 1,400 feet above the runway elevation. The glide slope is normally usable to the distance of 10 NM. However, at some locations, the glide slope has been certified for an extended service volume which exceeds 10 NM.

Personally I don't know what markings there are on a chart that indicate a GS is usable beyond 10NM since I have never required it.  I would be curious what scenario is in place that requires a GS to be usable at a range of 20nm.

[tyketto]

Found the information about glideslope usability from the US AIM:

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/Chap1/aim0101.html

3. The glide path projection angle is normally adjusted to 3 degrees above horizontal so that it intersects the MM at about 200 feet and the OM at about 1,400 feet above the runway elevation. The glide slope is normally usable to the distance of 10 NM. However, at some locations, the glide slope has been certified for an extended service volume which exceeds 10 NM.

Personally I don't know what markings there are on a chart that indicate a GS is usable beyond 10NM since I have never required it.  I would be curious what scenario is in place that requires a GS to be usable at a range of 20nm.

Try looking at the CIVET5 or RIIVR1 arrivals into LAX. The localizer (from what I've asked of pilots) goes out that far, but they have said that they capture the glideslope at FUELR or PALAC, which both are about 25DME from the field. This is why the controlers at SoCal give the call 'After FUELR (PALAC), Cleared ILS runway 25L (24R) approach.' No true TAC required for the approach clearance. By the time they hit FUELR, they should have both and descend by it, as the STARs end at the IAF for the ILS approach.

theoretically, you could wash/rinse/repeat for KEPEC2/SUNST2/TYSSN2 into LAS, as those arrivals drop you off at the IAF for ILS 25L as well. So by then, you'd have to have the GS active, otherwise, you wouldn't descend any lower than what you're given in PTAC until roughly 10NM out, right?

BL.

[KSYR-pjr]

This is why the controlers at SoCal give the call 'After FUELR (PALAC), Cleared ILS runway 25L (24R) approach.'

Don't have time right now to really study the specific chart (will do soon) but in general, controllers clearing an aircraft for an approach does not demonstrate that the aircraft has captured the glideslope (which I believe is what this discussion is about). 

Rather, controllers clear aircraft for the ILS approach when they become established on the localizer, and that does have a much further usable range than the glideslope.  Once cleared for the approach, the pilot is free to descend to the minimum altitude(s) detailed on the chart for that segment of the approach, if not given a crossing restriction, that is.

Also, from what I understand (not being a pilot who flies into the major airports via STARs I am forced to extrapolate) an approach clearance trumps a STAR procedure.  In other words, once the pilot is cleared for the approach he/she would adhere to altitudes, headings, etc, using the approach plate, not the STAR.

Do aircraft really capture the glideslope 25nm out for LAX?  I am not so sure about that.  Take a look at the profile section of 25L into LAX:



I would have expected to see the glideslope drawn out to FUELR had the approach designers intended the GS be captured there.  I could be wrong but that is my interpretation of the chart.

[DairyCreamer]

When a controller is vectoring an aircraft to an ILS they are descending and vectoring so that the aircraft intercepts the glideslope at or very near the FAF, not some point 20 miles out.  I would need to look it up, but I am not even sure a glideslope indication could be trusted that far out.

I'm afraid you don't seem terribly familiar with major international airports during busy rushes then.

Look over at DEN and their Triple Simo ILSs.  Look at ILS Runway 35L.  Find CRUUP.  19.8 DME south of the runway... and ATC must issue instructions for aircraft to be established on the localizer outside of that point by at least one mile.  During a busy rush in poor weather, people might well be joining that localizer up to 30 NM out.  And I guarantee those pilots are recieving the glideslope info by the time they hit CRUPP, probably much earlier.  It's a requirement to run simos.

From a pilot's standpoint, it's difficult to know how far out a particular localizer/GS is flight checked to.  But most localizer courses with GS are good for at least a dozen miles, many even more than that.  Wouldn't be able to make a string of pearls on final if everyone was turning on "at or very near the FAF."

~Nate

[KSYR-pjr]

From a pilot's standpoint, it's difficult to know how far out a particular localizer/GS is flight checked to.  But most localizer courses with GS are good for at least a dozen miles, many even more than that.  Wouldn't be able to make a string of pearls on final if everyone was turning on "at or very near the FAF."

I knew after rereading my post that someone would misinterpret it.  I was referring to glideslope intercept, not localizer intercept.  I said nothing about being turned onto the approach right at the marker, but I certainly will admit my wording was nebulous.  A better wording would have been: Controllers are descending aircraft below the glideslope well before the FAF so by the time they reach the FAF they intercept.  Better?

[DairyCreamer]

Fair enough with the wording,

However, if you look at my example at DEN, you'll see the FAF is at DYMON, a mere 6.8 DME south (closer to 5 miles to the landing threshold really).  If one is shooting a triple simo app though, those planes are going to be dead on the needles, both loc and GS, by the time they hit CRUPP, and probably before that.

Aircraft will be up at right about 11k as well when they start their let down on the glide (gotta maintain vertical sep with the parallel runway landers until everyone is established on the Loc/GS for their respective runway).  Been to the TRACON many a time, watched it happen with mine own two eyes

Just sayin... the ATC situation is a very fluid one, and glide slopes can go out there a long ways as well with their paired localizer.

~Nate

[Greg01]

Jason has the jist of what I was trying to find. Unfortunately, I'm having a hard time trying to relocate my source. If any of the controllers on here could give an explanation, it would be greatly appreciated.

However, getting back to the main point: it doesn't matter where you join the GS, just that the charted GS intercept on an ILS approach is the FAF.

Thanks,

[Jason]

Jason has the jist of what I was trying to find. Unfortunately, I'm having a hard time trying to relocate my source. If any of the controllers on here could give an explanation, it would be greatly appreciated.

However, getting back to the main point: it doesn't matter where you join the GS, just that the charted GS intercept on an ILS approach is the FAF.

Thanks,

I had a tough time finding sources as well, Greg.  I couldn't find anything in the TERPS manual, just a guess off the top of my head.

I personally think of the glideslope intercept as shown by the lightning bolt symbol as the last possible opportunity to become established on the approach (both laterally and vertically) since ATC can clear you for the approach further out on many procedures.  If you don't intercept the glideslope by that point, you should really go missed and try it again (though there are some exceptions, wake turbulence is a good example).  If you're not properly established on the approach (which includes heading deviations of less than 2º inside the FAF) by the FAF, it's a good idea to go missed.  No sense in trying to salvage what you aren't already ahead of.  Of course, varying winds aloft make this difficult, but usually they will cooperate to allow a solid WCA to be maintained on the FAC prior to the FAF.

[tyketto]

And I think Nate has it nailed, especially with it being very fluid.

In the case of ILS 25L at LAX, the CIVET5 and RIIVR1 are profiled descents that bring you down to the IAF for the approach at FUELR, so you'll still be on the STAR until being given 'after FUELR, cleared ILS runway 25L approach. So while on the profiled descent of the STAR, you'll already be on the LOC for the ILS approach. you'd stay on the STAR until you pass FUELR, and after that you should have both the LOC and GS for your descent down. It just may be something fluid that is done that it's hard to pinpoint where one ends and the other begins, but the GS is definitely available further out than 10nm.

This was one of the biggest FAQs that was brought up when the old SocalTracon.com forum was up and ran by a controller at SCT.

EDIT: Unless they follow the chart down until HUNDA, which could be possible...

BL.

[KSYR-pjr]

However, if you look at my example at DEN, you'll see the FAF is at DYMON, a mere 6.8 DME south (closer to 5 miles to the landing threshold really).  If one is shooting a triple simo app though, those planes are going to be dead on the needles, both loc and GS, by the time they hit CRUPP, and probably before that.

Ok, just looked.  Just out of curiosity, are you typing from a controller's perspective or a big iron pilot's perspective?  I am questioning the idea that in this example pilots are capturing the glideslope that far out but I am not saying it's not possible - just curious:  Notice that the minimum altitude at CRUPP and others have a note that reads "Or as assigned by ATC" which seems to imply that assigned altitude could be lower.  Note also that the glideslope intercept on the chart also has a note indicating that ATC could assign lower.   

Thus, without knowing what the normal ATC practice is there (does ATC routinely descend aircraft to the lower intercept altitude or keep them up at 11,000 at CRUPP before clearing for the ILS approach?) I am not yet convinced that aircraft are intercepting the GS that far back.

Of course, if you are a United 777 pilot then you definitely know that you are intercepting that far back.  From the controller's scope? Eh, do you really? 

BTW, I am only a Bonanza pilot but I do fly IFR at least twice to three times every week in the Northeast US for business and Angel Flight.  Been doing that since 2004.  The biggest airports I have been to are BWI and Boston and I do these once every few months.  I almost went to JFK once but was fortunately talked out of it.  Hey, let's face it:  There really is no need for us little ones to clog up the movement at those monster class B airports with so many suitable satellite airports.  I have been to Denver in the Bonanza twice, though, to visit my brother there.  Landed one year at Platte Valley and the next at Erie Muni. 

edit: removed incomplete thought.

[KSYR-pjr]

And I think Nate has it nailed, especially with it being very fluid.

What does it mean to be fluid?   I seek some clarification on how that word applies in this case, since my understanding of the word is "always changing."

[DairyCreamer]

Peter,

Give me time to dig up the appropriate references, I will get back to you later tonight.

~Nate

[tyketto]

And I think Nate has it nailed, especially with it being very fluid.

What does it mean to be fluid?   I seek some clarification on how that word applies in this case, since my understanding of the word is "always changing."

I believe what he was alluding to was that if the GS intercept is indeed only 10nm out, you're pretty much in no-man's land with the ILS approach, and are only following the descent as indicated on the chart until you have the GS. So if it is available further out, you're not just going from STAR - descent-per-chart - GS intercept, where it's choppy. the GS may be available further out than just 10nm to where it's a fluid even progression from end-of-STAR to GS.

BL.

[Greg01]

Tyketto, forget the STAR. Just take the STAR out of the picture completely. Let's say ATC has you direct FUELR and tells you to "Maintain 7000 until established on a published segment of the approach, cleared ILS 25L approach." After passing FUELR, just follow the minimum altitudes until you reach the GS intercept and your golden.