ATC error nearly causes midair collision

[bogman]

I came across this while I was browseing.Thought someone might be intrested.

http://http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/950425.html


Would the airlines warning equipment have gone off as well?If so would he have to wait for atc to give instructions or can he make an evasive manouver himself

[KSYR-pjr]

Whether it be a Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS) alert, one or more pilots spotting the potential conflict visually, or even having a "strong gut feeling" that something isn't quite right based on one's situational awareness⁽¹⁾, pilots (at least in the US and most likely worldwide) are authorized by regulations to take any action they deem appropriate to ensure the safe operation of the aircraft, including ignoring or temporarily deviating from an ATC instruction.

(1) - There was a case recently of an airliner here in the States who got lost while taxiing and soon thereafter ATC cleared another aircraft (a USAir jet, IIRC) for takeoff.  The pilot of the jet that was cleared to takeoff overrode ATC's instruction and held at the runway because he didn't like what he was hearing from ATC and the lost pilot's communications - come to find out the lost aircraft was actually sitting on the runway about two thirds of the way down and had the second aircraft taken the runway, there most likely would have been a collision.

edit:   I apologize but it would take a bit of research to find the reference of this incident, but I suspect other pilots here might recall it.

[KASWspotter]

There was a thread here a bit ago. I posted a link and with a video and audio. I'll look it up when i get some more time. Your memory is correct. It was a United plane that had just landed and made a wrong turn in the fog. ATC was convinced they knew where the plane was while the United argued that they were indeed lost. They actually had their nose across an active runway while a Fed  Ex or UPS took off. ATC then cleared a US Air flight to depart on the same runway but the US Air pilot had been monitoring and said he'd wait until they got it sorted out. That turned out to be the move that broke the chain leading to an accident. It amazing hearing the audio. The controller simply wouldnt believe the United was lost. It took the first officer jumping on the radio and getting pretty short with the controller to convey the situation.



Found it.... Check it out... SCARY STUFF... Listen at about 1:10 into it. You hear the Fed Ex jet over the United radio as they are talking. Close Call.

[KSYR-pjr]

Excellent.  Thanks, KASW, that was the incident.

[bogman]

The controller simply wouldnt believe the United was lost. It took the first officer jumping on the radio and getting pretty short with the controller to convey the situation.

Are controllers trained if the pilot thinks she/he are lost to stop everything and check that everything should be as it is supposed to be if not sort it out,instead on being certain that ,as in this case ,she was right and they  were wrong.Do they not have a ground radar  to help them

[MathFox]

Are controllers trained if the pilot thinks she/he are lost to stop everything and check that everything should be as it is supposed to be if not sort it out,instead on being certain that ,as in this case ,she was right and they  were wrong.Do they not have a ground radar  to help them

Controllers should use their common sense, check their radar (if available) etc.
I know that EHAM (Amsterdam Airport Schiphol) has ground radar that reads mode A transponder codes and ground control uses that to direct planes, even on clear days.
With older ground radar systems it can be much harder to positively ID planes... and the story doesn't even tell us whether the ground radar system was operational.

[Panop]

The airport involved did not have surface movement radar and it was foggy. 

Not only did the controller not believe the United was lost but she would not accept the position report that the crew made and insisted they were really where she thought they should be and that they were misinterpreting their location. 

That might just be acceptable if she had radar or visual contact but was not smart without that or some other confirmation to back up her belief.

It is fortunate that the US Air was on the same frequency and could hear enough of what was going on to refuse take off clearance.  Had this been at a bigger airport where Ground and Tower were on different frequencies I think we would be talking about the United/US Air crash rather than incident.

[w0x0f]

We've gotten away from one of Bogman's original questions.  The incident he referred to occurred in the air.  He asked if the pilot would have to wait for ATC to issue instructions or could the pilot take his own evasive action.

Hopefully a controller will notice an error which puts aircraft into danger and correct it immediately.  If this does not happen then an aircraft equipped with TCAS will receive instructions from TCAS to climb or descend to avoid traffic.  If both aircraft involved in the situation have TCAS, then the evasive maneuver should be coordinated where one aircraft is given a climb and the other a descent.  Pilots must comply with TCAS instructions.  Controllers cannot override a TCAS instruction. 

This is what happens when controllers override TCAS and pilots do not comply with TCAS instructions. 

 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2115425.stm

This was a very sad story.  It even gets worse.  The controller involved was murdered by a man who lost his wife, son, and daughter in the accident.

 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3489166.stm

w0x0f   

[Casper87]

To get to the point.....the PILOT makes the final decision for anything...be it take-off clearance or a climb/descent instruction....pilots do NOT hae to comply. But if they dont they should have a reason as to why.

A saying ill always remember:

If a PILOT f***s up, the PILOT dies.

If a CONTROLLER f***s up, the PILOT dies.

Quite clearly the pilot is ultimately responsible for the aircraft and passengers safety

[bogman]

A saying ill always remember:

If a PILOT f***s up, the PILOT dies.

If a CONTROLLER f***s up, the PILOT dies.

Quite clearly the pilot is ultimately responsible for the aircraft and passengers safety

I remember watching this on national geographic where an controller messed up.He was working by himself and working two radars . The accident happened while he was on the  other screen.He was later killed by a griveing reative who lost his family.


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[NWA ARJ]

 

There was a thread here a bit ago. I posted a link and with a video and audio. I'll look it up when i get some more time. Your memory is correct. It was a United plane that had just landed and made a wrong turn in the fog. ATC was convinced they knew where the plane was while the United argued that they were indeed lost. They actually had their nose across an active runway while a Fed  Ex or UPS took off. ATC then cleared a US Air flight to depart on the same runway but the US Air pilot had been monitoring and said he'd wait until they got it sorted out. That turned out to be the move that broke the chain leading to an accident. It amazing hearing the audio. The controller simply wouldnt believe the United was lost. It took the first officer jumping on the radio and getting pretty short with the controller to convey the situation.



Found it.... Check it out... SCARY STUFF... Listen at about 1:10 into it. You hear the Fed Ex jet over the United radio as they are talking. Close Call.

The controller ended up getting fired for this incident.

That incident happend a few years ago at PVD (Providence, RI). But when things start to get out of hand you need to figure out whats going on. NOT clear someone for takeoff. The controllers got fired for this incident. Not even NATCA could save her job.

[Jason]

The controller ended up getting fired for this incident.

That incident happend a few years ago at PVD (Providence, RI). But when things start to get out of hand you need to figure out whats going on. NOT clear someone for takeoff. The controllers got fired for this incident. Not even NATCA could save her job.

Really?  She's worked me before in the airspace numerous times within the last year or two and and can be heard on the PVD feed every so often.  She's known as the "incursion lady" to area pilots.  I think she should have been fired, her lack of patience could have led to a fatal accident if it wasn't for the US Air pilots who insisted they hold short until everything was figured out downfield.

That incident is very well known throughout the professional pilot community.  Many training outlets use the audio and animated video from this incident in initial and recurrent training sessions.