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Author Topic: Runway incursion - LROP 11 July 2011  (Read 16571 times)

Offline loplo

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Runway incursion - LROP 11 July 2011
« on: July 12, 2011, 01:46:57 PM »
Also on youtube for a better understanding.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/NQ1Gk0PD0D4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/NQ1Gk0PD0D4</a>



Offline w0x0f

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Re: Runway incursion - LROP 11 July 2011
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2011, 01:05:07 AM »
And that is the problem with conditional clearances.  I'm sure ICAO will have us using them in the US too, just like all the rest of their superior procedures. 

Offline bdcheung

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Re: Runway incursion - LROP 11 July 2011
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2011, 03:17:56 PM »
I couldn't understand half of what they were saying  :?

Offline loplo

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Re: Runway incursion - LROP 11 July 2011
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2011, 04:06:01 PM »
That's the main problem.

Offline mike_ny

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Re: Runway incursion - LROP 11 July 2011
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2011, 09:46:12 PM »
Question: Could there be a missing transmission in the audio recording?

While holding short, AEE seeks clarification on what they can expect. "Please confirm what expected?"
Tower: "only 2 minutes sir, traffic 2 miles from touchdown, I call you back after landing traffic for departure runway 8R."
Then AEE asks, "We can maintain runway heading for Aegean 4553?"
Tower confirms runway heading to FL310.

Either a transmission is then missing from the audio, or AEE took the initial departure information (heading and altitude) as a clearance to enter the runway and takeoff. This type of basic error would appear unlikely for an A320 pilot; probably (hopefully) there is a missing transmission in the audio.

In the recording, there was no transmission to line up and wait, or line after landing traffic, or any line up or enter the runway and there was no take off clearance.

Although afterwards, Tower says "I said after the landing traffic, you will enter on the runway ..."
If the Tower said that previously, it does not appear to have been included in this audio clip.

Great job on the video and audio. Thanks!
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 10:00:13 PM by mik_ny »

Offline loplo

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Re: Runway incursion - LROP 11 July 2011
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2011, 01:36:05 AM »
There are parts cut out of the archive file, but each and every transmission regarding the two planes and the ATC is there.
The pilot was asking something, ATC did not understand and assumed something else, etc.
The conditional clearance from the tower was not clear, he did not state the landing aircraft type, so the AEE pilot understood that he is cleared to line up after DLH A320. The second landing aircraft was a ROT 737.

As far is I know, AEE did not start the takeoff roll. He was just aligning and preparing his takeoff.

Offline NEILCM80

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Re: Runway incursion - LROP 11 July 2011
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2011, 03:10:30 PM »
From what i hear all the transmissions are there.

I would say that when the AEE was holding the DLH pasted infront of it touching down,
AEE asked for time to expect departure,
was told in a way that only suggests info only (after 2 mins when the plane a 2 miles has landed he will call) no type or airline and no conditional clearance this was info only, info and a time frame for the AEE when to expect the clearance.

Then the AEE asks about heading and altitude clearance, when the info was given in the form of information with no postive clearance the AEE presumed the DLH was the mentioned traffic and presumed the Info was a clearance and put 2+2 tighter and got 5 so he lined up for departure.

The tower could of given the info in a better way and followed it with a note to remain holding short.

The tower didnt want to give a conditional clearance which is why he gave info of when to expect the clearance.

Hope that makes sense, i could be totally wrong.

To many asumptions on the Tower and AEE part.

A case of acting on what you expect / want to hear rather than acting on what is being said.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 03:12:06 PM by NEILCM80 »