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Aviation => Pilot/Controller Forum => Topic started by: Lalbak on June 26, 2014, 08:48:18 AM

Title: Star Clearance
Post by: Lalbak on June 26, 2014, 08:48:18 AM
Hi All,

I have a question regarding next scenario
Some point to note first.

1.Flightplan from a to b,     flightplan last 3 points at:  pappa/ Star: pappa3f / cuw (iaf)
2. Rwy in use has several different "pappa" stars, the pappa3f is normally not the one to expect
3. No published holding at pappa point and pappa point is the first point of the star

5 min before approaching pappa point handover to new atc controller. ATC frequency is crowded, everybody talking and stepping on eachother and no way to get through. At pappa point still no arrival clearance received (however no com failure)

On the ground when cleared for dep to destination b, is the pappa3f arrival included? If so we proceed on the pappa3f as per flightplan. I would expect not
(if not)What is the normal action if no arrival clearance received from atc?

My oppinion
Since we don't know the arrival we are cleared for I think the best action (legally) is to do a standard holding at pappa point. Traffic flow it would be probably better to continue on the arrival. However I cannot find any information ICAO/JEPP regarding this. On the other hand our flightplan ends at cuw.

Title: Re: Star Clearance
Post by: None. on June 26, 2014, 11:27:44 AM
I think one detail that needs clarification is the airspace/region to which you're referring.

In the USA, for example, the STAR will definitely be included in your IFR clearance on the ground (since it's fully expected that the pilot/dispatcher will file the appropriate one). That clearance will also contain a clearance limit - almost always the arrival airport. In other words, as soon as you hear "(callsign), cleared to John F. Kennedy International Airport...", you know the last point you were cleared to is the KJFK airport. No further clearance is needed to join the STAR or, if cleared without one, to proceed direct from the last fix to the airport (or join an IAP if the last fix is an IAF and you've lost comms; I forget all of the gory details on that scenario).

Based on your narrative (and the naming scheme of the STAR), I assume you're referring to airspace somewhere in Europe. Apparently things work rather differently over there in this regard, so I'll refrain from commenting since I know very little.
Title: Re: Star Clearance
Post by: martyj19 on June 26, 2014, 11:39:40 AM
If the original clearance clears you to an airport, then that is your clearance limit.  If that clearance ends via a STAR that has a transition beginning at PAPPA, then you would be expected to proceed along that STAR.  You would not be expected to hold anywhere, particularly if you are making one up that isn't published.

It would be helpful to know the destination airport.  I am having difficulty locating CUW.
Title: Re: Star Clearance
Post by: Lalbak on June 26, 2014, 11:45:42 AM
Thank u for your replies,

It is indeed in europe, i made the names up. But maybe it helps to know the aiport etc.
Airport LGSA, arrival is sokri (not pappa) CUW = SUD
Title: Re: Star Clearance
Post by: martyj19 on June 26, 2014, 12:01:20 PM
Iin this scenario I don't see why you would not fly the SOKRI transition as published.  You have 64 miles from SOKRI to the airport, which is plenty of time to get an approach clearance when you are closer to the airport, and maybe vectors if that is usual practice at that airport.
Title: Re: Star Clearance
Post by: None. on June 26, 2014, 02:22:13 PM
Iin this scenario I don't see why you would not fly the SOKRI transition as published.
One reason why you would not fly it is that you weren't cleared to do so.

I prefaced my talk about clearance limits above to US airspace only, because from what I understand... the same does not hold true in (some of?) Europe. On that side of the pond, you must receive specific clearance from the controller before entering the TMA. If you don't get that clearance in time, you hold over the transition fix and await clearance (probably querying the controller ASAP rather than silently waiting unless told to expect clearance at some later time).

EDIT: And when i say "the same does not hold true", I'm referring to the fact that in the US, your clearance limit is almost always the arrival airport - not the transition fix onto a STAR.
Title: Re: Star Clearance
Post by: Lalbak on June 28, 2014, 07:34:34 AM
With some further research and your help regarding to the clearance on the ground in Europe it is indeed overal the same as in USA. So we normally get cleared to an airport.

In this case the filed star ends at an transition were an approach could be flown from iaf cuw to both runways.

However sometimes a star is runway specific. So let's say, I'm cleared to the airport according clearance, however the star on my flightplan is not correct because the runway is changed. So if I arrive at the beginning of the star would I still fly the filed star on the flighplan, so towards the wrong runway? Offcourse again with the same radio communication problem. This does'nt make sense to me since I think it could conflict with outbound traffic.

Please correct me if I'm wrong
Does anyone has a written reference that we don't need a clearance for a star?

One again thanks for the replies
Title: Re: Star Clearance
Post by: martyj19 on June 28, 2014, 08:28:35 AM
You didn't give us the entire clearance but if it is to the destination airport and calls out a STAR, that is part of your clearance and would remain part of it unless you were recleared.

If the STAR really has different routes depending on the landing runway, one would think that you would be recleared some time before you get there.  After all when the original clearance is issued no one knows for certain what runway is going to be in use by the time you have gotten to the destination.

This is a separate issue from needing clearance to enter the TMA of the destination.  In the US that is coordinated for you by ATC if you are on an IFR flight plan and you don't have to request it separately.  If you are VFR, then you do have to be sure you do what is needed for the class of airspace before you enter.

In the US, I do not think I have encountered a STAR that is runway specific.  You would fly the STAR until close to the airport and then be given vectors to join the approach for the active landing runway.  You would know what that runway is, so you can set up for it, from the arrival ATIS that you got many miles out.

Isn't it best if you get instruction from someone in the country where you are, rather than relying on advice you get here.  If you fly for an air carrier, I am confident that you have a chain of command that can get you that information.
Title: Re: Star Clearance
Post by: Lalbak on June 28, 2014, 11:12:33 AM
In europe they don't say specifcly the star in the clearance. However it is on the flightplan,
Cleared to destination ..... flightplan route, .... departure, squak ....

Yeah that is, I realized to late that this was overal a usa forum.
Anyway thanks for the help!
Title: Re: Star Clearance
Post by: 1053857 on June 28, 2014, 01:44:52 PM
No, the STAR is never, or very very rarely (if only 1 STAR exists or something like that) on the flightplan in Europe. It is almost ALWAYS assigned by ATC and you area verbally cleared for it.