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Aviation => Pilot/Controller Forum => Topic started by: captray on May 09, 2009, 12:35:38 PM

Title: Question for UK controlers
Post by: captray on May 09, 2009, 12:35:38 PM
On my last 2 trips into the UK I have been asked by the approach controller what type of service would I like? Personally, I would want the best service, but I think the answer they are looking for is different.

The choices, I believe, are deconfliction and standard. Deconfliction being what we get in the States and Standard is traffic advisories only where I am required to avoid the traffic.

The airports that I went to are; Humberside (EGNJ) and Coventry (EGBE). I was not asked the question going into Heathrow, so I believe it has to do with a smaller approach facility.

Any ideas?
Title: Re: Question for UK controlers
Post by: Casper87 on May 14, 2009, 05:49:35 AM
Ahh yes "The Question."

The type of service is not to do with the size of the approach facility. I dont mean to sound patronising but in a nutshell, here it goes.

Obviously there is Controlled airspace and Uncontrolled airspace. If you are flying inside controlled airspace you will automatically be under an Air Traffic Control serivce of some kind, which will not be stated, unless you join controlled airspace from outside CAS.
However when you leave controlled airspace you will then be subject to ATSOCAS. (Air Traffic Serivces OUTSIDE Controlled Airspace.)
In your case, for example, Coventry is outside controlled airspace so you will be asked whcih serivce you require.
Options being:

Deconfliction Service: Surveillence service. You will be separated from all aircraft observed and be passed avoiding action if needed.

Traffic Service: Surveillence service: You will not be separated from other aircraft, you will only be passed traffic information and its up to you as the PIC to separate yourself.

Basic Service: Is very very basic. No separation just information at the best of times.

Procedural Service: Non-radar service where you will be separated from participating aircraft only.

Hope this helps.

Title: Re: Question for UK controlers
Post by: Casper87 on May 14, 2009, 05:59:25 AM
Just to clarify;

The best you can get when flying outside controlled airspace is a "Deconfliction Service", providing the ATS unit has radar. If its a non-radar unit the "Procedural Service."

Title: Re: Question for UK controlers
Post by: captray on May 15, 2009, 05:09:40 PM
Thanks Casper, that explains alot.
Now that I have your attention how about when I take off IFR and the controller advises me to remain clear of controled airspace? I thought IFR was supposed to make that transparent? It does in the States, I am just trying to follow the rules.
Sometimes it is more difficult than it needs to be.
Title: Re: Question for UK controlers
Post by: Casper87 on May 16, 2009, 07:23:01 AM
hey hey.

Whether flying VFR or IFR in the UK you must have an explicit clearance to enter controlled airspace otherwise you must remain outside controlled airspace.
The term "Remain outside controlled airspace" is used alot in the UK in an effort to reduce infringements.
If you are refering to a specific situation then I can provide a more in depth answer if you can give a few more details.
Was the airfiled you departed from controlled (ATC) or uncontrolled?
Were you intending to join the airways system?
Did you file a flight plan to join airways?
How far from controlled airspace were you?
Who told you to "remain oustide controlled airspace?" i.e London Control, etc....

Happy landings,

Title: Re: Question for UK controlers
Post by: captray on May 16, 2009, 10:44:23 AM
First off thanks for your time in answering these questions!

I believe I was departing from Lutton, I was on a SID or at least assigned a departure procedure, ( fly the runway heading until 3 DME, turn right to 220, maintain 3000, contact London Control, remain clear of controlled airspace ). So in answer to some of your questions, I was on an IFR flight plan, there was a tower in operation, I was headed back to the States. And the big one it was IFR. Couldn't see a thing.

Hope this helps, Cheers!
Title: Re: Question for UK controlers
Post by: Casper87 on May 16, 2009, 11:27:55 AM
Always a pleasure to help with any questions related to UK procedures etc... especially considering the numerous differences between us, ICAO and the US.

Your starting to appeal to the investigative side of my brain I like a challenge.

Luton is already inside controlled airspace H24 so you cant be told to "remain clear of CAS," if your already inside as this would be a contradiction, just like when I tell my dog to get in his bed whilst pushing him away from it :evil:
Unless of cuorse the controller was having a bad 'air day (pun intended)

My suspision would be that, speaking hypothetically, you would have departed an aerodrome outside of CAS, lets say Biggin Hill for example. The approach/departure controller calls London for an airways joining clearance, however, due to the complexity of the surrounding airspace they cannot provide a joining clearance prior to your departure becuase then London would have to protect the level that you would be climbing to. Which isnt usually possible in the UK for various reasons.
So instead of being "cleared to join CAS on-track Ockham at 4000' squawk ****", London would give something like "cleared on-track Ockham at 2500' squawk ****, remain outside controlled airspace."
By stopping you off a 2500' that keeps you below CAS, until the controller is able to climb you into CAS.

Hope this helps.


Title: Re: Question for UK controlers
Post by: captray on May 16, 2009, 04:51:16 PM
I get it!
I also think that you are correct and it was Biggin Hill. ( Too many Airports in my head). That really does make sense, to stay below the other's sector airspace.
PS If you hear a confused Gulfstream N317MJ that would be me!
Title: Re: Question for UK controlers
Post by: Casper87 on May 17, 2009, 09:29:26 AM
Glad I could help.

I shall keep a listen out for your registration.