Author Topic: If RAPCON(APPROACH facility) can not use radar..  (Read 10786 times)

Offline stonemin

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If RAPCON(APPROACH facility) can not use radar..
« on: November 09, 2014, 01:48:48 AM »
if RAPCON(approach) can not use radar due to some problem(ex>electricity out, radar failure...) What does RAPCON do and be restricted their work?

I think this is called "NON RADAR SITUATION" and i wonder can they do air traffic control or not.

I learned Pilot use SID, STAR...etc which can operate under non radar in this situation, but if weather is not good, and pilot can not see outside(in cloud) i think just operating SID, STAR can be dangerous due to any traffic which do not contact control facility.

and i wonder what work  can RAPCON do under NON RADAR SITUATION.

if some vfr traffic suddenly contact RAPCON and request IFR clearance and radar vector due to weather, can RAPCON issue ifr clearance to vfr traffic? can RAPCON issue cleareance to fly some fix?(for example:C/S cleared to XXX(fix name), climb and maintain 9,000)

I want to know What work can RAPCON do in NON RADAR SITUATION.

Thanks..
« Last Edit: November 09, 2014, 01:50:43 AM by stonemin »



Offline None.

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Re: If RAPCON(APPROACH facility) can not use radar..
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2014, 02:44:01 PM »
if RAPCON(approach) can not use radar due to some problem(ex>electricity out, radar failure...) What does RAPCON do and be restricted their work?
Take any sections of the 7110.65 (and related military docs) that involve radar (radar separation, radar vectors, etc.) and throw them out the window. The rest remain in effect and perfect working order.

I think this is called "NON RADAR SITUATION" and i wonder can they do air traffic control or not.
Of course they can. Not every airport across the country has radar coverage to the ground, so there are already areas where non-radar procedures (e.g. for separation) will be used.

A radar is not necessary to provide ATC services (including separation); just ask oceanic controllers. Besides, if it was necessary, then someone sure wasted a lot of time on an entire chapter in the 7110.65: Chapter 6. Nonradar.

I learned Pilot use SID, STAR...etc which can operate under non radar in this situation
Some SIDs/STARs can be used under this situation, sure. However, if it's a vectored or a hybrid SID, for example, then they wouldn't want to issue a clearance using that procedure for obvious reasons.

but if weather is not good, and pilot can not see outside(in cloud) i think just operating SID, STAR can be dangerous due to any traffic which do not contact control facility.
Why?

If the other traffic is IFR, they must be in communication with the controlling facility. Likewise, that facility would have used non-radar separation procedures to prevent any possible conflicts.

If the other traffic is VFR, then they shouldn't be in the clouds. Depending upon the airspace classification (and perhaps time of day), they should be remaining a safe distance away from clouds such that they can apply the "see and avoid" mantra of VFR flying.

if some vfr traffic suddenly contact RAPCON and request IFR clearance and radar vector due to weather, can RAPCON issue ifr clearance to vfr traffic?
For the first question, pop-up IFR clearance could be given... however you wouldn't receive a vector to your first fix for obvious reasons. Instead, you'll likely be maintaining VFR (you are responsible for your own terrain/obstruction clearance, navigation, and traffic avoidance) until reaching some fix (and likely joining an airway, since random routing e.g. using GPS can't be used). From there, you'll begin your IFR flight.

For the second question, obviously no, you won't receive a radar vector if there is no radar. I'm not even sure whether or not they can approve deviations such as "deviation west of course approved, when able, ..." etc. If a simple altitude change won't suffice, you may have to work out an alternate clearance.

can RAPCON issue cleareance to fly some fix?(for example:C/S cleared to XXX(fix name), climb and maintain 9,000)
Are you asking about providing an IFR clearance or navigational guidance (such as the beginning of a route within an IFR clearance)?

If the former, yes, you can receive an IFR clearance to any fix - doesn't have to be an airport. Once you reach (and likely report) that fix, your IFR flight has been completed and you continue under VFR.

If the latter, then no, you wouldn't get navigational guidance to your first fix. In other words, you wouldn't hear "cleared to (somewhere) via direct (some fix)" because the "direct" is a radar vector. Instead, see my above comment about remaining VFR until reaching a given fix (from which your IFR clearance begins, as opposed to it beginning from your present position when you requested the pop-up IFR).

I want to know What work can RAPCON do in NON RADAR SITUATION.
They can do anything that doesn't require the use of a radar. :)

Offline stonemin

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Re: If RAPCON(APPROACH facility) can not use radar..
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2014, 01:26:43 AM »
Thank you for your answer about my question.

actually, i'm not pilot and i'm student who study ATC and not english native but i'am deeply moved by your kind answer in spite of my low quality english.

and as i wondered about this "if some vfr traffic suddenly contact RAPCON and request IFR clearance and radar vector due to weather, can RAPCON issue ifr clearance to vfr traffic?" in nonradar situation, What term should controller use?

you said "Cleared fix..." is radar vector, and if aircraft should go some fix to join airway, What term should controller use?

like "proceed fix"..?

i want to get your answer about my question, thanks.

Offline None.

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Re: If RAPCON(APPROACH facility) can not use radar..
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2014, 03:03:19 PM »
you said "Cleared fix..." is radar vector, and if aircraft should go some fix to join airway, What term should controller use?
No, I said that any IFR clearance that sounds like "Cleared to XYZ airport via direct FIX, airway 123, ..." etc. is a radar vector (present position direct to FIX) which wouldn't be possible. Instead, assuming they're even going to issue the pop-up IFR clearance at all, I'm guessing they would do one of two things:

1. Issue a VFR climb to the minimum safe altitude before giving the IFR clearance (which still won't be from "present position" - it will have to begin at some fix and utilize airways since radar separation can't be used).

2. Utilize section 4-2-8(d)(1) of the 7110.65:

Quote
1. Before issuing a clearance, ask if the pilot is able to maintain terrain and obstruction clearance during a climb to the minimum IFR altitude.

NOTE-
Pilots of pop-up aircraft are responsible for terrain and obstacle clearance until reaching minimum instrument altitude (MIA) or minimum en route altitude (MEA). Pilot compliance with an approved FAA procedure or an ATC instruction transfers that responsibility to the FAA; therefore, do not assign (or imply) specific course guidance that will (or could) be in effect below the MIA or MEA.

EXAMPLE-
“November Eight Seven Six, are you able to provide your own terrain and obstruction clearance between your present altitude and six thousand feet?”

The last part of the NOTE is where I was suggesting that the pilot would not be given any specific guidance on how to reach the first fix where the IFR flight begins; the pilot would need to maintain his own terrain and obstruction clearance while navigating to that fix (which might be direct, might be a curved path around terrain/weather, etc. etc.).
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 03:32:40 PM by swa4678 »

Offline martyj19

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Re: If RAPCON(APPROACH facility) can not use radar..
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2014, 07:27:33 PM »
Let me just reemphasize this difference about being cleared from present position.  I think that is where you are stuck.

If radar is available, having been radar identified and confirming Mode C altitude, I might get "cleared present position direct Bullion VOR, V32, somewhere".

If radar is not available, I can't get cleared from present position.  I would be cleared starting at Bullion and then along airways.  I have to be in VFR conditions responsible for my own navigation and terrain clearance until I get to Bullion VOR at an altitude high enough for obstacle clearance and navaid reception (the Minimum Enroute Altitude) and then my flight can continue under IFR along V32 to somewhere.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 07:35:22 PM by martyj19 »

Offline falstro

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Re: If RAPCON(APPROACH facility) can not use radar..
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2014, 06:35:34 AM »
Just to clarify, you can be cleared to a fix that is not your destination in your IFR flight plan. This is called a clearance limit (and sometimes referred to as clearing short iirc), and if you do not receive further clearance you'll have to hold at that fix, it doesn't mean you have to go VFR from that point.