Aviation > Pilot/Controller Forum

How much info about IAP is known to controllers?

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--- Quote from: keith on September 30, 2008, 02:21:11 PM ---

1) the few times I have asked for an approach from a feeder (not the IAF), the controller has given me the impression that he/she thinks the approach cannot be flown from that point.

--- End quote ---

If you mean From SAX, he's right.  You're not on the approach until you are on the thick black line. 

If you mean from ZASEB, then probably a call into the facilities QA number is in order to remind them that ZASEB->WANVA is part of the approach, or if things are quiet, a "BTW, ZASEB is an IAF for this approach."

Or maybe they've got procedures in place to VTF everybody when in radar coverage.  I know in SoCal, 9 times out of 10 they want you VTF'ed and you specifically have to ask for the full procedure.

--Carlos V.

but aren't you estabolished once you've crossed the IAF?  The MVA the controller is dealing with may be 3000'...so even if it is, at ZASEB, you're on a PUBLISHED portion of the approach, and you can descend right?  I'm looking at that tower to the north of ZASEB and i'm thinking the MVA may be 3000'. 

but you are correct..the phraseology should be.."cross ZASEB at 3000', cleared RNAV ...."

well...in my facility we do have the IDS4 system..which we can, with a couple mouse clicks, look up all the approach charts that we use.

i can almost guarantee that the MVA in the controllers area is 3000 if he/she is saying maintain 3000 until established.

Im not quite sure what you mean by a feeder...are you talking about the SAX VOR Transition?  If so...that is for a n on-radar situation...and that is basically what the 2700 feet is for reference that.

if you are under RADAR, the controller is responsible to give you an appropriate altitude that is safe for terrain and obstruction until you are established on a section of the approach...which as said before are the thick black lines.

NON-Radar, you would be told to procede via the SAX Vor transition and report ZASEB or WANVA inbound. then you would be cleared and told frequency changed approved.

Also, legally, a controller can only send you  direct to a IAF or IF, NOT an FAF.  and have to be within a 90 degree turn to be cleared.  OR you can be vectored to intercept the final approach course between a IAF and a FAF, to have no greater than a 30 degree intercept angle, AND the approach course must be depicted on the controllers radar scope.

You will be told to "procede direct ZASEB, cross ZASEB at 3000 (due to mva) cleared RNV RWY 19 Approach Lincoln Airport."

i really hope this makes sence...i typed this all on my iphone...so there are probably many spelling errors and i may not "flow" very well..lol

let me know if i can help any more at all...or just send me a pm.

I would think you could get away with flying the SAX transition as part of the approach, even in a radar enviroment if you filed or were cleared via: ..SAX.SAX071.ZASEB..N07.  Because neither SAX direct ZASEB nor SAX direct N07 puts you on a published non-radar routing with altitude information available for the route segment, those routings wouldn't work for the SAX transition.  If you have the SAX071R as part of your flight plan, it's just the same as if you were on a Victor airway which joins an approach route segment.

Here are our procedures for IFR altitude assignments:

--- Quote from: 7110.65S  Chapter 4, Section 5 ---4-5-6. MINIMUM EN ROUTE ALTITUDES

Except as provided in subparas a and b below, assign altitudes at or above the MEA for the route segment being flown. When a lower MEA for subsequent segments of the route is applicable, issue the lower MEA only after the aircraft is over or past the Fix/NAVAID beyond which the lower MEA applies unless a crossing restriction at or above the higher MEA is issued.
--- End quote ---


--- Quote from: 7110.65S Chapter 5, Section 6 ---5-6-1. APPLICATION

Vector aircraft:

c. At or above the MVA or the minimum IFR altitude except as authorized for radar approaches, special VFR, VFR operations, or by para 5-6-3, Vectors Below Minimum Altitude.
--- End quote ---

And by the way, the centers use a tool called ERIDS (EnRoute Information Display System) for accessing all FAA manuals and published charts.  It's basically just a huge database of PDF files with a touch-screen user interface.  No cool pictures, menus, or blueprints of Heinz Field like SA-IDS or IDS4 has.

The feeder (SAX to ZASEB) IS a published segment of the approach. It is designed to transition from the enroute structure to the approach. I would think it would be possible to be cleared for the approach from SAX, regardless of whether it's a RADAR or non-RADAR situation.  That's ok, though, it's a minor technicality.

I'm more interested in why I'm told to maintain 3000 until established 'on the final approach course'. I'm beginning to suspect it's simply habitual phrasing more than anything else.

Next time I fly it, if the controller isn't swamped, I will point out that the approach permits me to drop to 2700 after ZASEB and say, "do you mind if we cross ZASEB at 3000 then go lower?"


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