Author Topic: Don't you guys talk??? (Read 29357 times)

captray · « **on:** March 11, 2009, 04:10:52 PM »

Hopfully one of you ATC guys can answer this; I depart Teterboro, going to Albany VFR. I get a squawk code and a Class B restriction. Handed off to LGA departure then NY approach. At this point or when I talk to Boston center the controller asks 'where did you depart from and what's your destination?' Isn't there a strip that follows me or is that IFR only? I would have thought that when I spoke to TEB Clearance that they would have put it all the through, perhaps they only do it as far as the outer ring of the bravo.

Thanks!

Jason · « **Reply #1 on:** March 11, 2009, 04:25:35 PM »

It depends how they put you in the system. If you don't get entered into the NAS (which would be done via FDIO I would presume) and are assigned a squawk code from the area's VFR code bank, then usually your info is only available intra-facility. The ATCS's on the board can probably provide more specific information.

djmodifyd · « **Reply #2 on:** March 11, 2009, 05:01:48 PM »

it all depends.
if you were put in for flight following in the system, then yes a strip would "follow" you basically like an IFR strip.
This is only done if the controller is able to do this, and if the controller is to busy (or too lazy...) to do it, it is not required to enter you into the NAS if you are VFR, it is just an additional service.

it sounds like you were just identified and givin a local code for that specific facility only, and then the controller didn't enter you into the NAS.

I hope this makes sense.....ask away if you need.

KSYR-pjr · « **Reply #3 on:** March 11, 2009, 05:14:43 PM »

Quote from: djmodifyd on March 11, 2009, 05:01:48 PM

it sounds like you were just identified and givin a local code for that specific facility only, and then the controller didn't enter you into the NAS.

If that were the case would the controller for that first facility hand the pilot off to the next frequency or would s/he instead have instructed the pilot as, "Frequency change approved, squawk VFR, you can try the next facility on XXX.XX?" From this end of the mike it seems to me that the controller would only hand off a VFR aircraft that was "in the system" and receiving flight following.

djmodifyd · « **Reply #4 on:** March 11, 2009, 07:16:14 PM »

Quote from: KSYR-pjr on March 11, 2009, 05:14:43 PM

Quote from: djmodifyd on March 11, 2009, 05:01:48 PM
it sounds like you were just identified and givin a local code for that specific facility only, and then the controller didn't enter you into the NAS.

If that were the case would the controller for that first facility hand the pilot off to the next frequency or would s/he instead have instructed the pilot as, "Frequency change approved, squawk VFR, you can try the next facility on XXX.XX?" From this end of the mike it seems to me that the controller would only hand off a VFR aircraft that was "in the system" and receiving flight following.

they could have done a manual handoff to the next facility....the FDIO could have been down in the first faclity...or just didn't have time to type into the NAS...and then the recieving controller simply forgot the info that was givin to him

w0x0f · « **Reply #5 on:** March 12, 2009, 10:02:32 AM »

It may depend on how you ask for your VFR clearance. If you ask for clearance to depart the Class B, then that is more than likely what you'll get. You exit the B and they tell you to have a nice day. Many pilots prefer going to 1200 outside the B. I don't know why, I've seen it from both sides as a pilot and a controller, so I like the VFR advisories, there's too much traffic out there. Some pilots just don't like to talk to ATC.

Next time ask for a Class B clearance and flight following to your destination. That sounds like what you were expecting. I'm always glad to type in a quick VFR flight plan. Do not confuse that with filing a VFR flight plan with LockMart. They are not the same. You still need to close out a LockMart VFR flight plan with them, not ATC. We don't like dealing with them either.

w0x0f

captray · « **Reply #6 on:** March 12, 2009, 01:52:35 PM »

Maybe some more background would help; I go between TEB and ALB at least twice a week in a G4. When I or my copilot contact Clearence here's what it is said, "N**** G4, VFR request to ALB, 11,000 feet, 020 on course heading request a code." I'm not sure how to make it any more plain than that.

And the questioning continues.....

KSYR-pjr · « **Reply #7 on:** March 12, 2009, 02:12:12 PM »

Quote from: captray on March 12, 2009, 01:52:35 PM

Maybe some more background would help; I go between TEB and ALB at least twice a week in a G4. When I or my copilot contact Clearence here's what it is said, "N**** G4, VFR request to ALB, 11,000 feet, 020 on course heading request a code." I'm not sure how to make it any more plain than that.

Is "request a code" standard terminology? I don't hear that too often in the northeast US. Why not instead say, "requesting VFR flight following" or even more "standard phraseology" intact, "requesting traffic advisories?" That, in my experience, is what gets a VFR flight entered into the system.

Jason · « **Reply #8 on:** March 12, 2009, 02:17:25 PM »

Quote from: captray on March 12, 2009, 01:52:35 PM

Maybe some more background would help; I go between TEB and ALB at least twice a week in a G4. When I or my copilot contact Clearence here's what it is said, "N**** G4, VFR request to ALB, 11,000 feet, 020 on course heading request a code." I'm not sure how to make it any more plain than that.

And the questioning continues.....

Whether I'm in the Citation at OXC or the 172 at HPN, I somehow always get a code that sticks in the NAS since the controller put the VFR flight plan into the FDIO. HPN just started doing this all the time a few years back.

Jason

captray · « **Reply #9 on:** March 13, 2009, 06:34:29 AM »

Hey Jason, since you are from HPN maybe you can answer this one; ever since I first flew to HPN, about 15 years ago, the tower controllers require a transponder code before entering the pattern. Now, if you look on the sectional chart HPN is a Class D airport. Even though it is very close to LGA's Bravo. In theory, you should be able to call the tower prior to entering their airspace and establish 2 way communications. No code required. Now I think that being identified helps all involved but how do I explain this one to my students.

Jason · « **Reply #10 on:** March 13, 2009, 11:58:08 AM »

Quote from: captray on March 13, 2009, 06:34:29 AM

Hey Jason, since you are from HPN maybe you can answer this one; ever since I first flew to HPN, about 15 years ago, the tower controllers require a transponder code before entering the pattern. Now, if you look on the sectional chart HPN is a Class D airport. Even though it is very close to LGA's Bravo. In theory, you should be able to call the tower prior to entering their airspace and establish 2 way communications. No code required. Now I think that being identified helps all involved but how do I explain this one to my students.

HPN effectively operates as a Class C airport through a letter of agreement with N90 (NY TRACON), so inbound aircraft have to establish contact and squawk a code before getting sequenced and handed off to the tower. Traffic volume warrants this "Class C service," but the airspace can't be classified as class C due to a very technical and political reason which is a rather long story involving the lower 50 foot strata of the NY Bravo.

If you don't call NY Approach before the tower, the tower controller will tell you to contact NY and remain clear of the Delta.

captray · « **Reply #11 on:** March 13, 2009, 01:05:12 PM »

Thanks! Sometimes it helps to know the background.

NY Tower Guy · « **Reply #12 on:** March 17, 2009, 08:13:42 PM »

To clarify, alot of it has to do with workload and coordination with N90. I prefer to be talking to you 8-10 miles out. However, at that distance if I tag you up it requires coordination. At less than 6 miles no coordination is needed but my options with pattern entry and rwy are more limited. Personally I usually won't send you back to N90 b/c it just adds work for you and me but, I can't speak for everybody. For some it is their SOP.
Wayne

mkop · « **Reply #13 on:** March 18, 2009, 03:07:15 PM »

Wayne, which tower do you work at?

jmcmanna · « **Reply #14 on:** March 18, 2009, 06:03:14 PM »

Van Nuys Tower near Los Angeles is another class D that gives VFRs beacon codes. Some facilities just work that way, even though it's technically not required to have a transponder to go into most Class D's. At a VFR tower I once worked at, I gave out codes to inbounds one evening because I couldn't keep track of the non-stop arriving VFRs (over 70 ops to a single runway that hour).

With the flight following thing, if you specify that you want flight following "all the way to ABC airport", you'll probably have a higher success rate that just saying that you're going to ABC airport. Some facility SOPs require controllers to provide radar services only until a specific distance from the airport (usually 20 miles for class C airspace, for example), unless other services (like flight following) are specifically requested.

Reason for editing: Discussed scenario with another controller who pointed out that our own facility SOP tells us that radar services should be terminated 20 miles from the airport except for when requested by the pilot.

captray · « **Reply #15 on:** March 19, 2009, 09:31:47 AM »

Like all else in life, there are some that do the job just to get by, and others that give more than 100%.

TS@CID · « **Reply #16 on:** April 28, 2009, 02:38:13 PM »

Quote from: KSYR-pjr on March 11, 2009, 05:14:43 PM

If that were the case would the controller for that first facility hand the pilot off to the next frequency or would s/he instead have instructed the pilot as, "Frequency change approved, squawk VFR, you can try the next facility on XXX.XX?" From this end of the mike it seems to me that the controller would only hand off a VFR aircraft that was "in the system" and receiving flight following.

My approach control facility has 2 adjacent approach control facilities. Our radar equipment allows us to handoff aircraft to each other thru our ARTSIIE equipment WITHOUT being in the NAS system. Basically we are tranferring radar identification with only a call sign. Obviously there is an mode C altitude, but it has to be verified. So, if you come over to me, I need to find out that additional info that I require such as your destination and altitude.

Our SOP's only allows VFR handoffs.

mklatval · « **Reply #17 on:** April 30, 2009, 11:58:43 PM »

Just use the term "center advisories" or something like that and you'll get what you want. Requesting a code and saying your destination doesn't impart to me that you want advisories all the way to your destination.

w0x0f · « **Reply #18 on:** May 01, 2009, 01:40:36 AM »

Quote from: mklatval on April 30, 2009, 11:58:43 PM

Just use the term "center advisories" or something like that and you'll get what you want. Requesting a code and saying your destination doesn't impart to me that you want advisories all the way to your destination.

This is good unless you are going tower enroute, which is very likely in the area we are discussing on the east coast. "Flight following and advisories to destination" would be a better catch-all request.

w0x0f

atcssct · « **Reply #19 on:** May 15, 2009, 06:42:47 AM »

and my two cents...if you were asked your point of departure and you were VFR it was definitely a Center since we terminal folks don't particularly care where you departed from. Also, if you were entered into the NAS and the facility you are working with has interface with the next facility's airspace you are flying into, you will be handed off via the ARTS system. If not or the handoff function fails for some reason, our tendency is to terminate you and suggest a frequency for the next guy, but thats based on workload.

News:

Author Topic: Don't you guys talk??? (Read 29357 times)

djmodifyd

djmodifyd