LiveATC Discussion Forums
Aviation => Pilot/Controller Forum => Topic started by: gatling on February 28, 2010, 08:12:10 PM
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On a IFR flight VMC cleared direct to IAF 2 miles from it i asked ACT if we were cleared for approach he said continue on 1/2 mile from iaf i asked again and he cleared us for the approach.
Were we supposed to turn inbound or hold on the heading that we approached the fix and hold. what is correct?
I have read FAR Aim 4-4-3 holding instructions and read the 91.185 still not sure
Thanks
Kyle
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I don't know what is correct but I would think you could be safe if you had been ready to enter the hold per aim 4-4-3 sub para e.3. Once over the IAF call and ask for further clearance. If holding instructions are issued you're ready. If an approach clearance is issued you can do that. If no instructions are received you can consider yourself nordo and proceed accordingly in AIM 6-3-1.
The controller probably should have done a better job at communicating what to do. E.g. "At (IAF) track inbound, no delay expected" or "Expect approach clearance over (IAF)."
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Here's a few more thoughts....
Even though you were on an IFR flight plan it was VMC. Were you (and did the controller know you were practicing)? If so he may have had other, faster aircraft to get in, perhaps on a visual approach.
I am assumeing you were in a relativley slow aircraft. A half mile is about 30 seconds, this can be an eternity to a controller.
You were absolutly correct in querying the controller, if you were indeed practicing then he should have given you more time or instructions as stated by Sykocus.
Failing all else, once on the ground you could call and discuss the situation. Don't try and make waves just ask for clearification. I have found that to be helpful, too.
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controllers will use direct to a fix on an approach rather than vectoring quite often, as it is more precise then vectors. The problem is the question that you brought up, if the pilot isn't cleared for the approach in time, or the controller doesn't issue other instructions questions can arrise. As i understand it thought, you (as a pilot) should enter the published hold at the fix unless told otherwise.
Controllers are supposed to provide additional instructions 5 minutes prior to the fix in a non radar environment, and i don't believe there is a requirement in a radar environment but im not positive...but anyway my preference is to issue further instructions before 5 miles from the fix.
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"cleared direct [fix name]" is a change to your routing, not the clearance limit. You should technically proceed direct to the airport from the fix that you were just cleared to (unless your cleared route contained additional fixes beyond the IAF, which would be pretty unusual). This is not likely what the controller would be expecting, though, practically speaking.
You would only enter a hold at the fix if the clearance was "cleared to the [fix name]." If that was the controller's intention, however, it would almost certainly your holding instructions, too, because if he's doing that, he's likely holding the airspace for another departure/arrival in a non-radar environment (one in, one out).
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As a controller, I would expect you to join the FAC not hold. However I usually say direct (fix) and intercept the localizer, FAC. When I forget and just use the fix the pilot often asks a few miles before what I want him to do after (fix) and I simply say join the final. I think technically your supposed to hold but I would ask before you start holding. It will keep you both out of trouble!!
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If I understand correctly, since you were basically at your destination, and cleared direct to the IAF, I think technically you should hold there until your ETA passes. Technically you are NORDO at that point. I would have done one lap in the hold, then if my ETA has passed, fly the approach and land, assuming I haven't been able to query ATC.