LiveATC Discussion Forums
Air Traffic Monitoring => Listener Forum => Topic started by: RIVERSMVP09 on February 17, 2009, 01:47:37 AM
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I know 747s, Dc10s, and L1011s are.
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I know 747s, Dc10s, and L1011s are.
EDIT: The Search button above is your friend. :)
http://www.liveatc.net/forums/listener-forum/quick-question-about-'heavy'/
http://www.liveatc.net/forums/listener-forum/the-term-'heavy'/
http://www.liveatc.net/forums/listener-forum/heavy/
BL.
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I know 747s, Dc10s, and L1011s are.
By definition, any aircraft that weighs over 255,00 pounds, whether or not they are operating at that weight at the time of flight, is considered a heavy.
The Boeing 757 is not a heavy, but if it is the leading (or, preceeding) aircraft, it is treated like a heavy for wake turbulence purposes. If it is the trailing (or, succeeding) aircraft, then it is a large aircraft. The links posted above are helpful too. :-)
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That's not correct. A heavy aircraft is one that is in excess of 300,000 lbs on takeoff.
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Actually you can disregard my last post. There have been amendments to the 300,000 rule. It is 255,000
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I know 747s, Dc10s, and L1011s are.
By definition, any aircraft that weighs over 255,00 pounds, whether or not they are operating at that weight at the time of flight, is considered a heavy.
The Boeing 757 is not a heavy, but if it is the leading (or, preceeding) aircraft, it is treated like a heavy for wake turbulence purposes. If it is the trailing (or, succeeding) aircraft, then it is a large aircraft. The links posted above are helpful too. :-)
In addition to that: 757-300's are heavies. Also some operators of 757-200's add aux fuel tanks which boost their weight into the category of heavies. The now defunct ATA is one I know of personally that did this.
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Talking to a couple of other ATCs who have worked in a variety of Center and Terminal facilities throughout their careers, none have ever seen a heavy Boeing 757-200. The FAA does not publish anything anywhere that I have ever seen that said a Boeing 757-200 is anything other than a Large for weight categories. Through the many, many hours of wake turbulence training, CBIs, reading materials, tower training, and radar training, the 757-200 has always been a Large, not a heavy.
I don't have any way to collect a bet through this forum, but the challenge is there for anyone to find some sort of material dated any time in the last, say, 2 years, that the Boeing 757-200 has been classified as a heavy in the USA and post it on here, thereby making a fool of my outrageous statements that a B752 is never a heavy.
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Does anyone remember the Super Heavies? C5, 747, DC10's
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James,
I know for a fact that ARA expressly requested that their B752s be configured to exceed the 255,000lb limit. I'm trying to find something official on that, but they were always referred to as heavy when I was at LAS Tower. A photographer mentioned something about it at A.net as well:
http://tinyurl.com/cv76e6
I'll try to dig up more on how ATA set up their 752s.
BL.
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I have checked on Boeing's website and Wikipedia, but haven't been able to come up with anything over 255,000lb MTOW yet. I am seriously looking, because it would be the first heavy B752 for the controllers here. ATA had a bunch of B753s in their fleet, but I haven't found the B752 upgrade yet.
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but they were always referred to as heavy when I was at LAS Tower.
Was this during a tower visit you heard that? You are not a tower controller, are you?
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I work in a tower. Try not to over think it. There are certain B757's that are treated as a heavy but most people treat ALL B757's as heavies. Most don't care which model is or isn't considered a heavy. Apparently, the B757 generates a large amount of wake turbulence compared to other aircraft under the 255,000lb criteria. We provide wake turbulence separation (radar and tower) to everyone operating around them.
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For some airplanes, it dependes on if they are loaded or not. I used to work at YIP and somtimes American International (Kallita) would bring a 747 or and L-1011 in empty and the "Heavy" tag would not be after the flight number. Freighters fall into a strange little crack, as they have no seats, interior, lavs, galleys and so on.
Mainly, in passenger service, the L-1011, DC-10(good luck finding one of those :-D), MD-11, A330, A340, A380, B777, B767, B747 are titled as "Heavy".
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If an aircraft is capable of more than 255,000lbs it should always be designated as heavy, even if it is only weighing 200,000lbs. As a controller, we have no way to know what the actual weight is of the plane on a particular flight and more importantly, we don't care.
Seems like it might have been a rare case and/or the plane is no longer capable of operating at that weight. But again, it's not our jobs to figure that out. Could have been an error too. A lot of what if's though. Call it heavy and move on.
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I work in a tower. Try not to over think it. There are certain B757's that are treated as a heavy but most people treat ALL B757's as heavies. Most don't care which model is or isn't considered a heavy. Apparently, the B757 generates a large amount of wake turbulence compared to other aircraft under the 255,000lb criteria. We provide wake turbulence separation (radar and tower) to everyone operating around them.
It's not so much that it's being over thought (I certainly wouldn't plan on running a small aircraft that 1 mile closer to a B752 than a heavy just because I could), but it's a very specific question and worth a specific, technical answer. Besides, you never know when one of those refresher CBIs is going to come out with a pre-test that requires a 100% to get out of the course . . . and the first question is "what is the wake turbulence separation for a small aircraft following a Boeing 757-200?"
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Very good point PT9. Hang out at Willow Run long enough and you'll see some crazy stuff! :-D Kalittia operated airplanes from several former operators. A "747" is not just a "747". There are several variations, even in say just the 747-200 series! So who knows...
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Well, everything in the .65 simply says "B757", here's an example:
e. Separate aircraft operating directly behind, or directly behind and less than 1,000 feet below, or following an aircraft conducting an instrument approach by:
2. Large/heavy behind B757- 4 miles.
3. Small behind B757- 5 miles.
In the aircraft information area (appendix) of the .65 they have them listed as:
757-200 (C-32)
B752
2J/L (this means 2 engines, Jet, large weight class)
757-300
B753
2J/H (2 engines, Jet, Heavy)
All the .65 wake turbulence crap just says B757 so I apply it to ALL B757's.
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Hi everyone,
First post here but have been enjoying your site for a while now! Found these specs on the web for the 757-200:
Operating empty with P&W engines 57,840kg (127,520lb), with RB211s 57,975kg (127,810lb). Basic max takeoff 99,790kg (220,000lb), medium range MTOW 108,860kg (240,000lb), extended range MTOW 115,665kg (255,000lb) or 115,895kg (255,550lb).
So it seems that although all 757s are treated as heavies due to their inherent wake turbulence, the only one that can be officially classified as such is one of the two extended range versions (w RB211s?). Anyone know who flies this particular version?
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Rob,
All B757s are treated as heavy, whether designated as one or not. It wouldn't depend on engine type.
And no it wasn't a tour of LAS tower (I wish!!). I've spent many a day sitting at the parking area with a scanner tuned to Final, and my car stereo tuned to Tower. I saw just about all of ATA's fleet fly in and out (B722, B752, B753, DC10, L1011, B738.
The only aircraft I heard on frequency of theirs that weren't designated heavy were the B722s and B738s.
BL.
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Wow I really created a bit of commotion when I said B-757. The 7110.65, as stated above, only references the B 757-300 series as a Heavy, the B 757-200 is a large. If you ever see a B 757-300 as a passenger aircraft, let me know.. all are freighters.
For wake turbulence, the B 757 (either the -200 or -300) is considered as a a Heavy, not designed as one. It is considered that due to the wake turbulence the aircraft produces, as it is similar to that of a heavy aircraft, and probably due to the weight of the 757.
I definitely do not want to mislead anyone, a B 757-200 is a large by definition but controllers must treat this aircraft like they would a heavy in certain situations due to wake turbulence separation requirements. I believe this was also addressed in a prior post.
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Hey, Mark..
COA flies B753s. In fact they just received one of theirs again with winglets. NWA flies them too (pretty sure DAL is going to keep them). Condor, Monarch, and Thomas Cook do as well.
BL.
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Actually, I've flown in a couple B753s . . . NWA operates them, as well as Continental, and ATA had a handful of them.
The .65 says "B757", but if it's a B753, it's considered a heavy, so really "B757" means "Non-heavy B757".
If you treat a Boeing 757-200 as a heavy all the time, don't have an OE when the B752 is the trailing aircraft because of the extra mile needed because it's NOT a heavy (only a large, so it still needs the same in-trail separation as a CRJ or B737 when behind a heavy or another B757).
There are some air traffic controllers out there who generalize like that, and there are some who don't generalize and use their airspace more efficiently. Sometimes an extra mile here and an extra mile there makes a difference and sometimes it doesn't.
Remember: Small behind heavy = 6 miles; Small behind B752 = 5 miles.
B752 behind heavy = 5 miles; B752 behind B752 = 4 miles
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That's fine, never needed to worry about that extra 1 mile myself. You only need the distance when the first one crosses the threshold anyway.
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Hey, Mark..
COA flies B753s. In fact they just received one of theirs again with winglets. NWA flies them too (pretty sure DAL is going to keep them). Condor, Monarch, and Thomas Cook do as well.
BL.
Guess you learn something new every day... thanks for the info! :-)
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There are the joke "heavies" too. When I worked in the ramp tower for my airline, we had 2 types of aircraft. 50 seat and 70 seat. The 50s were just RJs, the 70s were either stretches or heavies. We didn't get the super stretches until after I had started flying.
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Well I didn't mean to stir things up I was only relaying what I knew. I've worked several H/752's. They were military charters from PHIK to PGUA. The fact that they were filed as heavies is what makes them stick out. It caused much head scratching at first until a letter was put out in the R&I about certain operators having 757's capable of a MTOW of greater then 255k lbs. It's up to the operators to file their flight plans with the H weight class. I don't blame anyone for not simply taking my word for it, so I'll try and track down some official info.
I did come across this discussion on another site.
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/97610/1/#1
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Here is an example of a H/B753 enroute to DTW.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NWA419 (http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NWA419)
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It's the H/B752's that we're interested in
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The A.net link sykocus mentioned pretty much backs up what I saw. I'm still trying to find more on it though. There is nothing at FA (obviously). What is funny is that I can find the 752s that AMT used; current registration, line number, the entire lot! I'm just not finding how they were configured MTOW wise.
If there were someone here from MDW tower, or someone at C90, who had to get them into and out of MDW, they'd have more information on them, as they would have seen the flight strips..
BL.