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Author Topic: CLEVELAND ARTCC AND TORONTO ACC  (Read 9459 times)

Offline MIAMIATC

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CLEVELAND ARTCC AND TORONTO ACC
« on: November 18, 2016, 08:52:57 AM »
I am astonished that we have lost pretty much all feeds from CLEVELAND ARTCC AND TORONTO ACC here.

What happened and are there plans to get back to where it once was ?



Offline RonR

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Re: CLEVELAND ARTCC AND TORONTO ACC
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2016, 10:30:24 AM »
I don't know for sure what happened but I would guess that whoever was providing any of these feeds, for whatever reason, could no longer do so.  As far as plans to bring any of them back?  I assume it would all depend on someone volunteering to provide a feed.

Offline AeroBill

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Re: CLEVELAND ARTCC AND TORONTO ACC
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2016, 05:58:19 PM »
As I recall the Cleveland Center feed was just one provider who had a number of frequencies. When he stopped
the feed we lost them. I too am somewhat surprised that we have no Cleveland Center frequencies given the
area the Center covers. We have lost some Jacksonville Center frequencies as well. Opportunities here for some
to provide Center feeds among those who can from these two Centers.
Generally speaking, it seems that most feed providers are more interested in a local airport feed that they enjoy
listening to rather than Center feeds that may not be of interest to them. Just note how many more airport feeds
there are as compared to Center feeds. LiveATC, of course, has to accept what the feed provider sets up.
On the other hand I have always found the Center feeds to be where most of the action is when it comes to
emergencies, weather related problems, delays, etc., and generally more interesting listening.
Case in point: On 911, NY, Boston, Cleveland Centers were where things were happening.
Realistically though, I doubt you will see a large amount of Center coverage as the interest does not seem to
be as great. In any event I'm sure we are all grateful for what LiveATC and feed volunteers give us. As the old
saying goes, Better something than nothing.

Offline captkel

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Re: CLEVELAND ARTCC AND TORONTO ACC
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2016, 08:18:27 AM »
It's the Yin and Yang theory:

Two principles, one negative, dark, and feminine (yin) and one positive, bright, and masculine (yang) whose interaction influences the destinies of creatures and things.

Offline MIAMIATC

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Re: CLEVELAND ARTCC AND TORONTO ACC
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2016, 11:15:04 AM »
Yes to a point I can understand something is better than nothing principle but the site has seen an increase in Airport towers that have little to no action at all. Secondly these ATIS feeds are not needed. Who wants to hear a looped report of WX at airports. Thirdly I have put in so many requests to Dave here to address the issues of 1....wrong frequencies listed or frequencies that should be on a feed that should be checked out and quality of a feed(which to my understanding is checked before they go up) but they are let on anyway and are of subpar quality of sound and clarity. These issues I am told will be looked into and taken care of only to find months later they are not. How hard is it to have a feeder visit the radio and for no longer than 5 minutes add a frequency or 2 in and to make sure the feed is in working condition
? Also while I am here I have on a few occasions asked feeders to experiment with frequency tinkering(a few have) and thankfully but some are not willing or as I have been told by them that Dave would not approve it(EVEN IF IT IS FOR A TEMPORARY TIME PERIOD). How about these supposed new feeds that are coming up that were actually old feeds that were once here(misleading) ? My problem here is I dont like being lied to by saying to me we will check it out or it will be handled when it isnt after several months. How many redundant feeds that here as well ? I as many others here have talked about the disappearence of ENROUTE FEEDS. Its not only me. There is an audience that still enjoy ENROUTE . I know the usual reply will be is to donate a radio or money but some of us dont have that luxury. My opinion is that new feeds need to be thoroughly looked over to reflect what is being monitored and also is clear in clarity before they get approved because many feeds coming up sound like crap. I just wish that the amount of feeders increase in the willingness to add or delete frequencies to make feeds better and again few have done so but more is needed . My suggestions for the majority are told they are impractical without even  an attempt to see why but instead are shut down without even a reason. SUGGESTIONS OF LISTENERS SHOULD BE TAKEN AND TRIED OUT FIRST BEFORE THEY ARE SHOT DOWN AS UNREASONABLE
« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 11:19:37 AM by MIAMIATC »

Offline RonR

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Re: CLEVELAND ARTCC AND TORONTO ACC
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2016, 12:15:53 PM »
OK, my two cents worth:

1) Most of the feed providers have voluntarily hosted a feed.  That means that they provided the equipment at their own expense and LiveATC has provided the interface to the LiveATC network.  The provider of the feed, in most cases, offers to provide a feed voluntarily so that they put a particular frequency or frequencies that they want.  If they want to add more frequencies, it is generally up to the feed provider.  They may choose not to for whatever reason.

2) In the past I have been asked to try out different frequencies on a number of my feeds.  I have no problem entertaining those suggestions.  For me it's easy.  Some of the feeds I provide are sitting right next to me on my desk.  But I also know that there are many feeds out there that are not so easily accessible.  Some of my other feeds are at other locations and if there should be a problem with one of them, it's not always so easy to fix.  I can't always just drop what I'm doing to go and take care of a problem or try a different frequency.  And that problem would be the same, I'm sure, with all the other remote feeds here on LiveATC.

3) Of course, then there are those who might not be willing to experiment.  And that's their choice.

4) When feeds go away, in most cases, it's because the provider for whatever reason can no longer offer it.  Maybe he's moving, maybe his landlord doesn't like the antenna on the outside of the building, maybe he lost interest, who knows...sometimes feeds just go away without any notification.  It happens.  There's usually nothing that can be done about it.  Hopefully, someone will contact LiveATC and offer to provide an enroute ZOB feed.

5) I personally prefer to listen to ENROUTE feeds.  So, I'm happy for all the enroute feeds that do exist.  But I also understand that they might not be there forever so I will take what I can get and enjoy those that are available.

Bottom line?  Enjoy what is available.  LiveATC is the best site for listening to ATC.  More feeds appear almost every day, even ATIS feeds.  Just like there is an audience for enroute feeds, there's also an audience, smaller as it may be, for ATIS feeds.

Ron

Offline MIAMIATC

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Re: CLEVELAND ARTCC AND TORONTO ACC
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2016, 02:26:07 PM »
Ron there are still new feeds that  come online with lousy audio and/or wrong frequency listings of missing frequencies that are listed on new feeds. which I thought are carefully looked over before being approved for release. These feeds should be vetted and released upon reviewing if all information is correct.

Lets take for example VALDOSTA feed which shows 126.6 as a departure frequency(which seems to be vfr) however the other departure frequency that should be on there is 132.375(IFR TRAFFIC) that is missing. Ive sent 2 messages here in the last year and its not been added.

BOGOTA COLUMBIA is only transmitting on TOWER FREQ while it has listed 5 app/dep frequencies which are not scanned(also have brought to attention a year and half and no change)

LGGG which has listed 125.2 and 134.325 but in essence only has 125.2 on it and again I have  contacted LIVEATC several times on it and nothing happens even mentioning of an add of 124.625.

MPTO(PANAMA) where it has been told to me by Dave for a year and half the NORTH SECTOR would be added and it never has and has been subsequenctly discontinued.

LASTLY RON please address where a few feed operators have advised me that they cant accommodate frequency requests because DAVE would not allow it when they more than accommodate these requests(even temporary).

Dont say you are going to things when apparently is not the case. I HAVE BEEN HERE FOR CLOSE TO 15 YEARS and back in its inception we had quick results in taking care of these type of situations .

LASTLY ALOT OF THESE NEW FEEDS ARE NOT NEW FEEDS BUT OLD FEEDS THAT USED TO BE AVAILABLE(THIS IS MISLEADING TO THE NEWCOMERS  AND IS DECEPTIVE)


RANT OVER.


Offline Dushan

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Re: CLEVELAND ARTCC AND TORONTO ACC
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2016, 08:13:22 PM »
I just installed a receiver, and believe Dave wants to use it for Toronto Center. He said the reception is "Fantastic" and he will be bringing it online, soon.

Offline MIAMIATC

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Re: CLEVELAND ARTCC AND TORONTO ACC
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2016, 10:34:19 AM »
Dushan would you be open to adding 1 to no more than 2 mire frequencies to the Toronto Center Feed ? If so can you add 135.625 and 133.3. 133.3 handles departures toward the N.E. AND MID-ATLANTIC and 135.625 handles West Traffic going to the West Coast please

Thank You

Offline dave

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Re: CLEVELAND ARTCC AND TORONTO ACC
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2016, 08:53:11 PM »
Dushan would you be open to adding 1 to no more than 2 mire frequencies to the Toronto Center Feed ? If so can you add 135.625 and 133.3. 133.3 handles departures toward the N.E. AND MID-ATLANTIC and 135.625 handles West Traffic going to the West Coast please

These will not be added since the CZYZ feed is busy enough as it is and the transmitters for 133.3 and 135.625 are well out of range of this receiver location. We only have a single receiver to devote to Toronto Centre at this location. If anything, I may have to remove some frequencies to make this feed usable. This receiver is only tuned to the CZYZ transmitters known to be at CYYZ.

Mike...we've added countless enroute feeds over the last year - not just here in the U.S., but all over the world. There is a larger audience out there than just you - and lots of other users on the network. I love listening to everything from Tower to ARTCC/FIR traffic...in the end, though, we can't make everyone happy. Hope the rant made you feel better, at least.  :-)  Merry Christmas.

-Dave

Offline JetScan1

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Re: CLEVELAND ARTCC AND TORONTO ACC
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2016, 10:32:16 PM »
dave,

Quote
I may have to remove some frequencies to make this feed usable. This receiver is only tuned to the CZYZ transmitters known to be at CYYZ.

Agreed, it's too busy as it is.

The problem is the Terminal/Approach frequency 119.30 (west satellite sector) is very busy with local VFR and CYTZ IFR traffic (Porter Airlines) that block out a lot of the Center stuff. As 119.30 is often combined with the other Terminal/Approach frequency 133.40, is there any way you could move it over to the YTZ approach feed as a stop gap until more radios are available ? You might not get the controller over there but at least you would hear all the YTZ airborne traffic on the YTZ feed, and free up the YYZ Center feed for actual Center traffic.

There are also two backup Center frequencies located at CYYZ, 119.775 and 120.175, they don't use them very often but when they do they are often used in sectors you normally can't hear the controllers from CYYZ, so could make an interesting addition when they are in use or to cover the regular frequencies that are down.

Just a thought, always willing to donate funds for more Center radios.

JS

« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 10:34:49 PM by JetScan1 »

Offline dave

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Re: CLEVELAND ARTCC AND TORONTO ACC
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2016, 04:18:07 AM »
dave,

Quote
I may have to remove some frequencies to make this feed usable. This receiver is only tuned to the CZYZ transmitters known to be at CYYZ.

Agreed, it's too busy as it is.

The problem is the Terminal/Approach frequency 119.30 (west satellite sector) is very busy with local VFR and CYTZ IFR traffic (Porter Airlines) that block out a lot of the Center stuff. As 119.30 is often combined with the other Terminal/Approach frequency 133.40, is there any way you could move it over to the YTZ approach feed as a stop gap until more radios are available ? You might not get the controller over there but at least you would hear all the YTZ airborne traffic on the YTZ feed, and free up the YYZ Center feed for actual Center traffic.

There are also two backup Center frequencies located at CYYZ, 119.775 and 120.175, they don't use them very often but when they do they are often used in sectors you normally can't hear the controllers from CYYZ, so could make an interesting addition when they are in use or to cover the regular frequencies that are down.

Just a thought, always willing to donate funds for more Center radios.

JS

Good idea, JS. Done. I think 119.30, even though dedicated to West Satellite, actually has its transmitter at YYZ - so it's audible from this receiver location.

Hopefully this will resolve some of the congestion on the CZYZ feed. I also added the spares...not sure how often those are used.

Thanks for the constructive and useful suggestions.



Offline JetScan1

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Re: CLEVELAND ARTCC AND TORONTO ACC
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2016, 09:57:30 AM »
Quote
Hopefully this will resolve some of the congestion on the CZYZ feed.

Thanks Dave, from what I have heard so far that is a big improvement, works well now ! (Although ideally another feed would help to maybe split things high/low or east/west).

Nice feed, excellent controller reception on all frequencies except 125.775 which is noticeably weaker for some reason.

Quote
I also added the spares...not sure how often those are used.

I have heard them used in various sectors over the years, but not very often.

Now need to find some volunteers in London, St. Catharines and Wiarton to cover the other Center frequencies in the area.

As usual thanks for all your hard work !!

Cheers,

Offline MIAMIATC

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Re: CLEVELAND ARTCC AND TORONTO ACC
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2016, 02:00:20 PM »
Whatever Dave.....I know most of my suggestions if not all are always turned down by you. Very rare I get to contact an operator of a radio and ask them to add or delete a frequency or 2 that these operators actually do so without having to check with you first. Yes I know your site but owners of the radios should choose wheather or not about to entertain a suggestion without having to check with you first. Let them choose not you. Seems to be alot of discrimination against those that want ENROUTE even if there is no controller. Many suggestions have never been follow upped with for months and years about adding frequencies that would improve a feed or even make sure the frequency list is correct or not. Still a lot of feeds that have improper frequency listings that I have brought up and always told it  will be taken care of when it never is . Ive even as far as tried to compromise in asking changes be temporary but always told no by you. I can go on with this . I know many here are of the mindset of dont rock the boat but I am not this way. I really think people bow to you too much on this site and it has gone to your head and you are more and more running this like a dictatorship.

Offline dave

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Re: CLEVELAND ARTCC AND TORONTO ACC
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2016, 02:16:06 PM »
Mike...if you were part of the many feed arrangements that are made here you would know that everything you are saying is patently untrue. We work hard here as a community to provide quality feeds - it's not a perfect system (no system is) - but most of your suggestions are and have been centered around modifying feeds to make them cluttered and unusable. That's not what we're trying to do here. I work with every single volunteer feed provider to work out the best set of frequencies based on their desires and what typical demand will be - information learned over many years.

We have a bunch of enroute feeds...but when we (or a volunteer) deploy equipment, airports (and surrounding TRACON/Approach) are what most people want to listen to. It's a reality. I check every single receiver location for proximity to a Center RCAG - in some cases we have brought up a Center feed or added Center frequencies even if we are out of range of the RCAG...and then deal with all the complaint email when the listener can't hear the controller side - maybe I should forward all of those to you? :-)

All the disparaging remarks over the years have not helped your case. I respect that you wish to speak your mind - and you have - but a little diplomacy goes a long way.