airtraffic

Author Topic: Vertical Seperation  (Read 8357 times)

Offline Scrapper

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Vertical Seperation
« on: March 12, 2008, 02:25:51 PM »
I was reading a post in here not too long ago about traffic pointouts for vertical seperations of 1000 feet difference (ie. if one guy's flying around at FL390 he would get pointed out opposite direction traffic above him at FL400 as an example). The reason stated behind this was that 1000 feet seperation from a distance looks like the guy might be at the same altitude, etc. So I was curious to see what this might look like. Since there are alot of pilots out there, as a controller, I'm really curious to see what this actually looks like... If anyone has a video of traffic passing above or below them at 1000 feet, can you please post, so I can get an appreciation of what this actually looks like? I've done some private flying, but 1000 feet at lower altitudes and slower speeds usually looks like plenty... I imagine at Mach 0.81 at 40 thousand feet, this can appear much closer...



Offline cessna157

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Re: Vertical Seperation
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2008, 02:36:52 PM »
I'll try to catch a picture of it sometime if I think about it.
At the higher altitudes, what is 1000' pressure altitude difference, is actually about 800 actual feet due to the cold air temperatures as well as the general compression of the atmosphere (1/2 of the atmosphere is below 18,000')

But generally, at higher altitudes, an aircraft that is 1000' below your aircraft, at about 5 miles out, looks to be level or slightly above your altitude.  I'm really not sure why, maybe possibly due to your height above the horizon.  Once it is within 5 miles, it appears to be descending to cross below your aircraft (although both would be in level flight)

Offline Jason

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Re: Vertical Seperation
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2008, 03:16:57 PM »
I don't have a good example of traffic a few miles out separated by 1000 feet, but this is how it looks at altitude when traffic 1000 feet below you passes by.  Note the Falcon in the lower left around FL400.


Offline Hollis

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Re: Vertical Seperation
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2008, 04:01:23 PM »
Two major factors affect your perception of what you see. Primarily, the atmosperic distortion due to the lens effect wherein the lights rays are actually bent. Thus an object will appear to be higher than it actuallly is. (The mirage effect). Secondly, as you can see in the above photo, the curvature of the Earth itself tends to make an object seem higher until it closes in.
(An aircraft at constant altitude in flight is actually flying a very, very gradual outside loop!).

Offline Scrapper

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Re: Vertical Seperation
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2008, 01:11:33 PM »
This is pretty much what I expected. While it's not even quite 1000 feet, when it actually passes overhead or underneath you, it seems like plenty of seperation  (as noted in the picture) but when it's off in the distance, when you first spot it, the illusion would be that you're on a collision course, and I guess that's where it's our job to give you a head's up before you see it, so you're not surprised by it? If anyone has any pictures of what they look like 5 to 10 miles out, I'd be curious to see (be it opposing or crossing traffic... I'm just curious to see the effect where a guy is lower than you, but appears like he's at your altitude...)

Offline w0x0f

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Re: Vertical Seperation
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2008, 09:59:48 PM »
If anyone has any pictures of what they look like 5 to 10 miles out, I'd be curious to see (be it opposing or crossing traffic... I'm just curious to see the effect where a guy is lower than you, but appears like he's at your altitude...)

Here is what they look like 10 miles out   

                           .


Sorry, I couldn't help it.   :lol:

w0x0f
« Last Edit: March 13, 2008, 10:06:03 PM by w0x0f »

Offline Scrapper

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Re: Vertical Seperation
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2008, 08:04:07 PM »
w0x0f, as always your sense of humour put a smile on my face! haha... That was a good one... Point taken... haha... but if there are any other good pictures out there, I wouldn't mind seeing them... Talk to you guys in a bit...

Offline Scrapper

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Re: Vertical Seperation
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2008, 10:30:15 PM »
I realize it's been a while since we talked about this topic but I found this video on youtube today that answers my own question, and I have to admit that I have a WHOLE new appreciation for what opposing traffic in RVSM airspace looks like... this is pretty hairy! Here's the link...


Offline Towerboss

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Re: Vertical Seperation
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2008, 04:28:43 PM »
As an air traffic controller from our point of view we are required to apply this rule in the situation you describe.

5-1-8. MERGING TARGET PROCEDURES

a. Except while they are established in a holding pattern, apply merging target procedures to all radar identified:

1. Aircraft at 10,000 feet and above.

2. Turbojet aircraft regardless of altitude.

REFERENCE-
P/CG Term- Turbojet Aircraft.

3. Presidential aircraft regardless of altitude.

b. Issue traffic information to those aircraft listed in subpara a whose targets appear likely to merge unless the aircraft are separated by more than the appropriate vertical separation minima.

EXAMPLE-
"Traffic twelve o'clock, seven miles, eastbound, MD-80, at one seven thousand."

"United Sixteen and American Twenty-five, traffic twelve o'clock, one zero miles, opposite direction, eastbound seven twenty seven at flight level three three zero, westbound MD-Eighty at flight level three one zero."

c. When both aircraft in subpara b are in RVSM airspace, and vertically separated by 1,000 feet, if either pilot reports they are unable to maintain RVSM due to turbulence or mountain wave, vector either aircraft to avoid merging with the target of the other aircraft.

EXAMPLE-
"Delta One Twenty Three, fly heading two niner zero, vector for traffic. Traffic twelve o'clock, one zero miles, opposite direction, MD-80 eastbound at flight level three two zero."

d. If the pilot requests, vector his/her aircraft to avoid merging with the target of previously issued traffic.

NOTE-
Aircraft closure rates are so rapid that when applying merging target procedures, controller issuance of traffic must be commenced in ample time for the pilot to decide if a vector is necessary.

e. If unable to provide vector service, inform the pilot.

NOTE-
The phraseology "Unable RVSM due turbulence (or mountain wave)" is only intended for severe turbulence or other weather encounters with altitude deviations of approximately 200 feet or more.

Have a good one.

TB   8-)

Offline moto400ex

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Re: Vertical Seperation
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2008, 06:24:22 PM »
This is one of my favorite videos, Citation X passing traffic that is 2 thousand feet below.


http://youtube.com/watch?v=GoNEyJ1tcGw

Offline gsu2720

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Re: Vertical Seperation
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2008, 11:44:01 AM »
Some very interesting video of jet traffic.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0Vmg_kAD1EQ&feature=user