LiveATC Discussion Forums
Air Traffic Monitoring => Listener Forum => Topic started by: JALTO on September 02, 2008, 03:23:18 PM
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Just wondering what it has been like for the controllers out there, especially in Philly and CLT, trying to get used to the new Cactus call sign? Any slips yet?
-Jalto
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I've witnessed callsign mistakes on both the pilot and controller sides. It would have made more sense if they just used the AWE three letter for the flight plans/ARTS (for the controllers anyway).
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I've witnessed callsign mistakes on both the pilot and controller sides. It would have made more sense if they just used the AWE three letter for the flight plans/ARTS (for the controllers anyway).
I've seen the same thing and agree that AWE would have made the transition easier, at least for the controllers. This ill-conceived procedure is typical of the USAirways/America West merger mess. The Piedmont fiasco is looking like a huge success now.
w0x0f
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I've witnessed callsign mistakes on both the pilot and controller sides. It would have made more sense if they just used the AWE three letter for the flight plans/ARTS (for the controllers anyway).
I've seen the same thing and agree that AWE would have made the transition easier, at least for the controllers. This ill-conceived procedure is typical of the USAirways/America West merger mess. The Piedmont fiasco is looking like a huge success now.
w0x0f
In some ways, yes.. The European controllers would have no idea that AWE would be the AWE/USA company. They're used to seeing USA there, while AWE's last int'l flight was their ill-fated B742 service to Japan via HNL.
BL.
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I've witnessed callsign mistakes on both the pilot and controller sides. It would have made more sense if they just used the AWE three letter for the flight plans/ARTS (for the controllers anyway).
I've seen the same thing and agree that AWE would have made the transition easier, at least for the controllers. This ill-conceived procedure is typical of the USAirways/America West merger mess. The Piedmont fiasco is looking like a huge success now.
w0x0f
In some ways, yes.. The European controllers would have no idea that AWE would be the AWE/USA company. They're used to seeing USA there, while AWE's last int'l flight was their ill-fated B742 service to Japan via HNL.
BL.
It's a Catch 22. I saw Cactus 734 Heavy depart last night to MAN. He sounded flawless with the callsign change all the way out of Philly. However, from what I read online. When he got to MAN, the Approach controller (or I guess Director :lol:) kept calling him US Air. The first East crew to depart with the new callsign was USA1420 - PHL-CLT at 5:40am. He checked in with departure "Good Morning Departure, this is East Cactus 1420 we're out of 1000 for 5" I got a kick out of that.
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YES, BOSTON, BOSTON, BOSTON!!!!!!!
Every singe time they say US A...CACTUS!!!
Controllers and pilots alike, they really sound P/Oed about it too, cant really blame them.
Pilot: US...Cactus 1234 holding short...
Controller(Boston John):We will get used to it eventually.
Pilot:This is my 4th call sign change this year.
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Just heard JFK Approach (CAMRN) having a helluva time with "Cactus 12". 4:38pm and 4:40pm EDT (2038 and 2040z).
Edit: It continues at 4:43....4:44...
"US Air 12, descend and maintain [altitude]"
*crickets*
"Cactus 12, descend and maintain [altitude]"
pilot responds as expected.
Controller says, "you're going to make me pay every time, aren't ya?"
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Well flight number 12 was always Cactus before the change so I think the pilot actually got a bit of a chip on his shoulder when the controller mentioned him as USAIR. Just like the east pilots I have been hearing have been giving some controllers here in Florida a hard time when mentioned as Cactus.
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Here in Cactus country, its always been Cactus for AWE and US Air the same.. So now am reading right, both AWE and USAIR are going to use Cactus for there flights?
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Well flight number 12 was always Cactus before the change so I think the pilot actually got a bit of a chip on his shoulder when the controller mentioned him as USAIR. Just like the east pilots I have been hearing have been giving some controllers here in Florida a hard time when mentioned as Cactus.
but now on the radar screen it would have shown USA12 insted of AWE12 so thats y he might have called him USair
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To clarify again,
USA = Cactus
Before September 1st:
USA = US Air
AWE = Cactus
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Well flight number 12 was always Cactus before the change so I think the pilot actually got a bit of a chip on his shoulder when the controller mentioned him as USAIR. Just like the east pilots I have been hearing have been giving some controllers here in Florida a hard time when mentioned as Cactus.
but now on the radar screen it would have shown USA12 insted of AWE12 so thats y he might have called him USair
Exactly. This is tough because the code is so damn near the actual callsign phonteically... you see "USA" and it's so easy to just say US Air.
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Hello there. Is AWE America West Airlines? And if so, what is the new call sign for AWE? Thanks.
Chananya
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Hello there. Is AWE America West Airlines? And if so, what is the new call sign for AWE? Thanks.
Chananya
Yes, AWE stood for America West. There is no new callsign for AWE. That ICAO is out the door.
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Hello there. Is AWE America West Airlines? And if so, what is the new call sign for AWE? Thanks.
Chananya
I think what you mean is if America West exist. AWA does not actually exist, you see, neither does the old US Airways, as they merged in 2005.
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I am currently listening to EHAM (Schiphol, Amsterdam) and just heard USA 799 check in as US Air 799... Is the callsign change restricted to America?
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I am currently listening to EHAM (Schiphol, Amsterdam) and just heard USA 799 check in as US Air 799... Is the callsign change restricted to America?
From my understanding, this should be worldwide.. interesting..
BL.
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Schiphol ATC is aware of the callsign change too... and start using Cactus, still sometimes US Air is heard. The pilot threw in a few US-Cactus 799's, nothing special.
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You will notice Eagle flights are now using all 4 digits of flight number. We were using the last 3 digits for a long time.
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ASA did the same thing a few months ago. Comair just changed flight number ranges with DL, but callsigns still drop the first digit and add 1000 to thru flights.
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It looks like this will be addressed on the ATC side. Starting 9/19/08 the "Cactus" 3 letter ID will be AWE. USA will no longer be used. It's like one of those timed brain games where they show you the word BLUE and the print is red and the question is "What color is the word?" There was a lot of room for error. Now if we can get the pilots to play along.
Here's the official notice:
EFFECTIVE: 09/19/2008 – TIME 0800Z
CANCELLATION: 01/15/2009
SUBJECT: CHANGES TO FAA ORDER JO 7340.2, CONTRACTIONS, CHAPTER 3, SECTIONS 1, 2, AND 3.
THE FOLLOWING ADDITION, CANCELLATION, MODIFICATION TO THE CORPORATE
TELEPHONY AND IDENTIFIER ASSIGNMENTS HAVE BEEN APPROVED.
THIS CANCELS GENOT RWA 8/20
MODIFICATIONS
COMPANY TELEPHONY IDENT
FROM: US AIRWAYS (PHOENIX, AZ) CACTUS USA
TO : US AIRWAYS (PHOENIX, AZ) CACTUS AWE
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I certainly hope they'll inform IATA and ICAO...
http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/us-air-andgt-cactus-changed-in-icao-database/msg29036/#msg29036 (http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/us-air-andgt-cactus-changed-in-icao-database/msg29036/#msg29036)
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"USA" makes so much more sense as an ICAO... oh brother.
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"USA" makes so much more sense as an ICAO... oh brother.
In this case, I'd agree.. but to play devil's advocate, the 2nd incarnation of National Airlines didn't resurrect the NAL ICAO code that the old Sunkings used to have.. they went with ROK and Redrock.
BL.
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im glad i don't have them.....
its hard enough that CHQ and EGF are now 4 letter calls signs......ie EGF4199 instead of EGF199.
its So hard to add the 4
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I think CHQ has always been on a full flight number callsign. ASA changed theirs to all 4 digits a few months ago, as well as changed their callsign about 3 years ago.
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I think CHQ has always been on a full flight number callsign. ASA changed theirs to all 4 digits a few months ago, as well as changed their callsign about 3 years ago.
ASA as in Alaska Airlines (ICAO), or ASA as in Atlantic Southeast Airlines (ICAO: ASQ)?
BL.
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ASA as in Alaska Airlines (ICAO), or ASA as in Atlantic Southeast Airlines (ICAO: ASQ)?
BL.
Eh, touché. I was talking ASA the airline (EV). Previously CAA "Candler" then ACY "Acey" then ASQ "Acey"
I always like the Candler callsigns when I worked ASA flights. I thought it was an extremely clever callsign.
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Just listening to JFK departure 135.900 (8:05 EDT - 17SEP) and a "Cactus" flight advised the controller that they will be switching back to the "US Air" callsign in 2 days. DJ
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They will be switching to AWE as an ICAO code, but the callsign will remain Cactus. It would just confuse the hell out of everybody if they changed to AWE, and changed the callsign to US Air! :?
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Just listening to JFK departure 135.900 (8:05 EDT - 17SEP) and a "Cactus" flight advised the controller that they will be switching back to the "US Air" callsign in 2 days. DJ
The pilot was misinformed. Please read the GENOT in response # 20 of this thread. Their three letter identifier will change to AWE. Their call sign will be Cactus effective 9/19/08.
This should help from the controller's perspective. For the controller it is like looking at the word "red" printed in blue ink and asking what color is the word. The change to AWE will be consistent with the callsign with which it has been historically attached.
Now it's up to the eastern based pilots to play along. This has been slightly problematic. Some will just say the flight number. This is certainly a safety issue which has to be addressed. I'm glad that it has been addressed on one end of the problem.
Looks like Adrian8 and I were posting at the same time.
w0x0f
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You address an important issue though... several times I have heard a controller mess up and say US Air, and the pilot fails to correct them and simply says the flight number, or US Air.
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The pilot was misinformed.
I misunderstood him. He said, "the identifier was going to change in 2 days", so he meant the 3 letter identifier and not the callsign, my mistake. DJ
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Does that mean the callsigns are going to sound and look the same as the American Eagle Flights which are now four-numbered call signs?
Chananya
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Does that mean the callsigns are going to sound and look the same as the American Eagle Flights which are now four-numbered call signs?
Chananya
No.
what this means is that the ICAO code is changing from "USA" to "AWE". Before the merge, AWE used the callsign "Cactus". US Airways is going to be using AWE for their ICAO code, and Cactus for their callsign. Everything else should be the same.
BL.
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I wonder who did not get the memo about the Sept 19 change:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/USA799/history/20080919/0906Z/EHAM/KPHL
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I wonder who did not get the memo about the Sept 19 change:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/USA799/history/20080919/0906Z/EHAM/KPHL
Isn't it still the 18th? Or am I horribly confused
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I wonder who did not get the memo about the Sept 19 change:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/USA799/history/20080919/0906Z/EHAM/KPHL
Isn't it still the 18th? Or am I horribly confused
You might want to check again after drinking a cup of coffee... the flight is scheduled for tomorrow.
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They've been using Cactus at Schiphol/Dutch ATC for about a good two weeks already, although the inbound FPL for today is still filed as USA798.
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They've been using Cactus at Schiphol/Dutch ATC for about a good two weeks already, although the inbound FPL for today is still filed as USA798.
They have filed AWE798 for departure today (coming in tomorrow):
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AWE798/history/20080919/2305Z/KPHL/EHAM
and AWE799 for the return trip tomorrow:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AWE799/history/20080920/0905Z/EHAM/KPHL
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They came in as USA798 (plan filed yesterday ... ) and departed AWE799.
I sat on sector west, when handing the aircraft over to London control he answerred "118.480 USair 799" controller ".. cactus.." crew"yeah... cactus.. bye" :-D
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on the strip yesterday it said USA but once they departed, it was AWE on radar... wierd.
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on the strip yesterday it said USA but once they departed, it was AWE on radar... wierd.
Safety was never compromised :wink:
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Much better on 9/19 with the AWE identifier, at least for controllers. Heard a few pilots still saying or starting to say "USAir." It appears that the major hurdle has been passed. I hope someone at the FAA took notes on this screw up.
w0x0f
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Yeah right!