updated KJFK departures

[wiedehopf]

So the FAA has updated their departures for JFK:

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/digital_products/dtpp/search/results/?cycle=1808&ident=JFK&page=1

(There is a nice compare button)

Only real change seems to be the required climb gradient for the SKORR departure
http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1808/compare_pdf/00610skorr_cmp.pdf

I guess that's for noise abatement.

What i wonder though: Why didn't they incorporate the infamous "Kennedy Four; fly runway heading to the JFK 1.5 DME then right turn 100"
That is a real mouthful to be read and read back. If they would just put it into the Kennedy Five .... whatever.


Have a nice day!

[Comfirm31L]

They cant make it a published SID because an environmental impact study would need to be done and that can take years. If they started it years ago it could've been done by now!

[wiedehopf]

Confirm13L:

Oh well. That's probably the reason why the 22R and 22L localizer are in stupid places. The marsh would not care if there were some localizer antennas on stilts embedded in it. Probably makes maintenance harder though.

Today a Delta had uneven flaps extension and laded with flaps 11 and 13.

They chose the "longer" rwy 22R which actually has less landing distance available than 22L.
But i guess if you fly the last 500 feet or so visually you can touch down quite a bit earlier while still being safe.

The stupidly far displaced threshold is for noise reasons i presume?

P.S.: did i say right? cleared to land 31L

[tyketto]

So the FAA has updated their departures for JFK:

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/digital_products/dtpp/search/results/?cycle=1808&ident=JFK&page=1

(There is a nice compare button)

Only real change seems to be the required climb gradient for the SKORR departure
http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1808/compare_pdf/00610skorr_cmp.pdf

I guess that's for noise abatement.

What i wonder though: Why didn't they incorporate the infamous "Kennedy Four; fly runway heading to the JFK 1.5 DME then right turn 100"
That is a real mouthful to be read and read back. If they would just put it into the Kennedy Five .... whatever.


Have a nice day!

Your answer lies in the on the actual JFK4 an JFK5 SID, let alone the description of the chart; particularly, the notes section. The second note there states:

*Note: To be assigned to non-turbojet aircraft.

This would mean props or even blimps would use this SID, and no jets. It basically is the prop and non-RNAV equivalent to the SKORR3/SKORR4, with being used for noise abatement only (read: nighttime ops), while the SKORR can be used any time of the day or night.

BL.

[wiedehopf]

Your answer lies in the on the actual JFK4 an JFK5 SID, let alone the description of the chart; particularly, the notes section. The second note there states:

*Note: To be assigned to non-turbojet aircraft.

This would mean props or even blimps would use this SID, and no jets. It basically is the prop and non-RNAV equivalent to the SKORR3/SKORR4, with being used for noise abatement only (read: nighttime ops), while the SKORR can be used any time of the day or night.

BL.

So that can't be quite correct. The note only applies to the Idlewild Climb, that is the right turn out of the 31s which is used for props and turboprops which is used so they don't clog up the SKORR departure being slow.
Also used at night which is stupid as the SKORR or the canarsie climb would be better noise wise.

The second note only applies to the Gateway Climb and i have not heard that one assigned ever. If they assign something differen from runway heading off 22R it is: On departure fly heading 250 to join the Canarsie 223 radial.
This is sometimes done for the folks that are routed via RBV Robbinsville and would get the RANGR transition of the SKORR departure.
But when they are assigned this instead of just runway heading i'm not sure.

And the SKORR is only used for 31L not for 04L.
For 04L the current standard is what i wrote above:
"Kennedy 5 departure, fly runway heading until JFK 1.5 DME, then turn right heading 100"

They could put that in the SKORR departure and save themselves tons of work when changing runways. They would not even need to change the clearance then.
Maybe i should put a soundfile on here what it sounds like when it's busy and they change to 04L as a departure runway

[tyketto]

Your answer lies in the on the actual JFK4 an JFK5 SID, let alone the description of the chart; particularly, the notes section. The second note there states:

*Note: To be assigned to non-turbojet aircraft.

This would mean props or even blimps would use this SID, and no jets. It basically is the prop and non-RNAV equivalent to the SKORR3/SKORR4, with being used for noise abatement only (read: nighttime ops), while the SKORR can be used any time of the day or night.

BL.

So that can't be quite correct. The note only applies to the Idlewild Climb, that is the right turn out of the 31s which is used for props and turboprops which is used so they don't clog up the SKORR departure being slow.
Also used at night which is stupid as the SKORR or the canarsie climb would be better noise wise.

The second note only applies to the Gateway Climb and i have not heard that one assigned ever. If they assign something differen from runway heading off 22R it is: On departure fly heading 250 to join the Canarsie 223 radial.
This is sometimes done for the folks that are routed via RBV Robbinsville and would get the RANGR transition of the SKORR departure.
But when they are assigned this instead of just runway heading i'm not sure.

And the SKORR is only used for 31L not for 04L.
For 04L the current standard is what i wrote above:
"Kennedy 5 departure, fly runway heading until JFK 1.5 DME, then turn right heading 100"

They could put that in the SKORR departure and save themselves tons of work when changing runways. They would not even need to change the clearance then.
Maybe i should put a soundfile on here what it sounds like when it's busy and they change to 04L as a departure runway

Not every SID has to be multiple-runway specific. Case in point: The STAAV8 departure out of KLAS is only valid off runways 26L/26R.

Other things to consider: STARs into the N90 facility that not only affect KJFK, but arrivals into KLGA, KTEB, KISP, etc., that the vectors you are asking about may come into conflict with. To bring KLAS back into question, I couldn't assign the STAAV8 to one departure off of 26R, while assigning the BOACH9 to someone departing 1L/1R, as they would conflict with eachother with the BOACH9 requiring a left turnout directly into the departure route of the STAAV8, which requires a right turnout.

Also, what you're asking for defeats the purpose of RNAV procedures. But let's go along with it. How would the departure get to SKORR? That right turn to 100 then another right turn to SKORR blows completely through the final approach course to the 4s. Then with the only two transitions on the SID, heading back to YNKEE blows again through that final approach course for both 4L/4R, effectively putting that heading in conflict with any IAP going to 4L/4R (ILS, VOR, RNAV (GPS) Y/Z, etc.). It would not work.

So how would they, in your proposal, get to SKORR?

BL.

[wiedehopf]

Well they would not get to SKORR.
So it wouldn't be a RNAV departure.

Of course you can have departures only work for certain runways but that normally means a routing change as well.
At JFK all planes get vectored anyway no matter which departure they fly so it would be possible to have such a strange SID.

But you are right it wouldn't work like i suggested because all SKORR departures get a transition assigned that would no longer be valid.

So yes the change should go into the Kennedy 5 departure. Still much less talk to assign the Kennedy 5 instead of the Kennedy 5 with all the extra stuff that needs to be read back.
And i've heard early and no turn at all resulting in that "custom" SID.

Anyway they have something like it already:
https://de.flightaware.com/resources/airport/JFK/DP/DEEZZ+FIVE+(RNAV)/pdf

That's not really an RNAV SID in the strictest sense. It's some RNAV some vectors back to RNAV.

Anyway it does not matter how you implemented it but it would be useful to put the "100 heading after JFK 1.5 DME" on paper, and it's quite obvious it's not being put there for strange bureaucratic reasons, which is always sad to see.

And just to make it clear: The departure procedure does not have any conflicts because it is what everyone departing 04L at JFK get's as a clearance most of the time. It's not like they are issued these "vectors" after takeoff as an instruction, rather issued before as a clearance together with the route.

The clearance is designed to get out of La Guardia's way while protecting from conflicts with go-arounds on 04R.

[tyketto]

Well they would not get to SKORR.
So it wouldn't be a RNAV departure.

Of course you can have departures only work for certain runways but that normally means a routing change as well.
At JFK all planes get vectored anyway no matter which departure they fly so it would be possible to have such a strange SID.

But you are right it wouldn't work like i suggested because all SKORR departures get a transition assigned that would no longer be valid.

So yes the change should go into the Kennedy 5 departure. Still much less talk to assign the Kennedy 5 instead of the Kennedy 5 with all the extra stuff that needs to be read back.
And i've heard early and no turn at all resulting in that "custom" SID.

Anyway they have something like it already:
https://de.flightaware.com/resources/airport/JFK/DP/DEEZZ+FIVE+(RNAV)/pdf

That's not really an RNAV SID in the strictest sense. It's some RNAV some vectors back to RNAV.

Anyway it does not matter how you implemented it but it would be useful to put the "100 heading after JFK 1.5 DME" on paper, and it's quite obvious it's not being put there for strange bureaucratic reasons, which is always sad to see.

And just to make it clear: The departure procedure does not have any conflicts because it is what everyone departing 04L at JFK get's as a clearance most of the time. It's not like they are issued these "vectors" after takeoff as an instruction, rather issued before as a clearance together with the route.

The clearance is designed to get out of La Guardia's way while protecting from conflicts with go-arounds on 04R.

It wouldn't work; once you issue vectors to an aircraft off of the SID, it cancels the SID. Then trying to get them back to the next waypoint on the SID and telling them to resume the SID adds redundancy to the part of the controller.

BL.