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Author Topic: Turkish Airliner Crash  (Read 112294 times)

Offline andreblt

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Re: Turkish Airliner Crash
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2009, 02:17:46 PM »
The aircraft never made any radio call after establishing on the ILS. It seemed to just stall out about 3 miles short of the threshold 18R. It landed in a field with its tail first. It fell to the ground almost vertically as reported by eyewitnesses and as can be seen by the relatively short skid marks in the field.
Why the airplanes fell below the Glide slope and stalled is not clear. The remains of the RH engine with its shredded fanblades suggests the engine was running on impact. There were three crewmembers on the flightdeck all of them deceased. Both CVR and FDR are recovered. Keep you posted.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2009, 02:20:15 PM by andreblt »

Offline iskyfly

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Re: Turkish Airliner Crash
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2009, 02:58:02 PM »
The remains of the RH engine with its shredded fanblades suggests the engine was running on impact.
the fan blades of one engine seems to be relatively intact indicating low rpm at time of impact.

Offline joeyb747

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Re: Turkish Airliner Crash
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2009, 03:35:38 PM »


[/quote]
who is saying that this early in the game?
[/quote]

Just a guess. Heard from one source that the airplane had performed a go-around. I only heard that form one place...

Offline joeyb747

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Re: Turkish Airliner Crash
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2009, 03:39:50 PM »
here is another link to the "latest" news...

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20090225/NEWS-US-CRASH-AMSTERDAM/

This mentions no possible cause just yet...

Offline ruud

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Re: Turkish Airliner Crash
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2009, 05:59:31 PM »
If you listen to EHAM1b at 01.46 min, it seems to sound like "missed approach". But who this was I don't know.   



http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/turkish-airlines-1951-feb-25-2009/
« Last Edit: February 25, 2009, 06:01:35 PM by ruud »

kea001

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Re: Turkish Airliner Crash
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2009, 06:18:43 PM »
The aircraft never made any radio call after establishing on the ILS.

"TC-JGE can not be heard on the tower frequency on liveatc.net, possibly because of their feed listens to a multitude of frequencies including clearance, ground and tower with a lot of communication on clearance in the critical time. The tower frequency only cuts in for part into the transmission of the pilot report of an airplane down, the call sign not audible."

So says Aviation Herald.
http://avherald.com/h?article=41595ec3&opt=1

Offline Amante de Aviones

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Re: Turkish Airliner Crash
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2009, 06:55:11 PM »
i wonder if it was a birdstrike, i was listening to the feed before the crash and Singapore 342 reported they hit birds on approach.

Offline dutchmil

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Re: Turkish Airliner Crash
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2009, 07:00:30 PM »
Been listening to my audio feed from this morning, and I think that the Turkish
aircraft crashed at 0926z.

Turkish 1951 was handed over from Schiphol approach to Schiphol tower 118.275
at 0924z, but he never checked in there. This would probably indicate that he
already had some problems then, and was too busy dealing with them and had no
time to check in with tower anymore .....

The next aircraft to land after the Turkish aircraft was JAT 262 and he was
instructed to "go around" by tower on 118.275 at 0927z.

Hope this helps,


René.
Live ATC feed from the Netherlands
http://audio.liveatc.net:8012/eham.m3u
« Last Edit: February 25, 2009, 07:03:13 PM by dutchmil »

kea001

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Re: Turkish Airliner Crash
« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2009, 08:46:05 PM »
Been listening to my audio feed from this morning, and I think that the Turkish
aircraft crashed at 0926z.

Ah...the creator. A reason to post this.

Listen to the following attachment. This occurred just prior to the 0926 mark.

I've taken samples from the same time frame from EHAM and EHAM2 feeds.
I've put in audible beeps to distinguish the two samples.

Listen for the female voice in the background. You can hear it in both feeds.

The other thing I was curious about was the discrepancy between the time of the feeds and the time that is being reported in the media. Most outlets are reporting 10:31 local or 0931z as the time of the crash.




By the way, this is the best web designer/multimedia duo in the Netherlands:

Vossen and Springer
http://www.marcelvossen.com/website/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=99&Itemid=51

Check out the impersonation videos at the bottom.  :-D

« Last Edit: February 25, 2009, 09:05:11 PM by kea001 »

Offline dutchmil

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Re: Turkish Airliner Crash
« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2009, 08:53:47 PM »
Yes, thanks. I think she is shouting something, but unclear what.

Still think very strongly that THK 1951 never checked in with tower.

René.
Live ATC feed from the Netherlands
http://audio.liveatc.net:8012/eham.m3u

kea001

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Re: Turkish Airliner Crash
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2009, 01:50:28 PM »
Dutchmil strikes again

BBC NEWS:
Air control confirms emergency
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7910801.stm
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 01:53:20 PM by kea001 »

Offline joedupont

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Re: Turkish Airliner Crash
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2009, 02:43:39 PM »
Very strange.. heavy impact.. engines gone and no apparent fire?
Were they out of fuel???
how much fuel was there on board?

Offline BerendBotje1

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Re: Turkish Airliner Crash
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2009, 04:26:34 PM »
Turkish 1951 was handed over from Schiphol approach to Schiphol tower 118.275
at 0924z, but he never checked in there. This would probably indicate that he
already had some problems then, and was too busy dealing with them and had no
time to check in with tower anymore .....

Not checking in on the tower frequency can also mean it was not recorded from the feed.  :wink:


Offline iskyfly

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Re: Turkish Airliner Crash
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2009, 07:00:25 PM »
Very strange.. heavy impact.. engines gone and no apparent fire?
Were they out of fuel???
how much fuel was there on board?

wet conditions.
you need a spark to light a fire...

Offline joeyb747

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Re: Turkish Airliner Crash
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2009, 07:27:09 PM »
Does anyone know for sure what the airplanes attitude was when it made contact with the ground? I've heard tail first, also indicated by the short marks left on the ground. That would suggest a stall. Nose up. Or they were trying to climb.

Was the airplane on autopilot? I haven't heard any mention of autopilot.

Just a passing thought...Does anyone remember Eastern 401? L-1011 that crashed in the Florida Everglades while on approach to KMIA. Crew was preoccupied with a nose gear light that didn't go green. The F/O bumped the yoke and turned off the autopilot as he fumbled with the cover on the light. The airplane began a slow descent as it circled. The crew didnt notice this until they saw the reeds and saw grass going by the windows. I know autopilot today is disconnected by a button, followed by an audible alert. Turns out it was a burnt out bulb....anyway, is it possible they lost track of what they were doing?? I Don't want to blame the crew, I hear the Captain was rather experienced.

Just a couple of thoughts to kick around... :-D

Offline joeyb747

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Re: Turkish Airliner Crash
« Reply #40 on: February 26, 2009, 07:45:12 PM »
http://www.airdisaster.com/news/article.php?id=46

Here is the link to the story on airdisaster.com in case anyone would like to read it...

It says "The pilot is an experienced one who is a former member of the Turkish Air Force," reguarding the Captain, I'm assuming.

Offline LucasJV

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Re: Turkish Airliner Crash
« Reply #41 on: February 26, 2009, 08:40:56 PM »
Does anyone know for sure what the airplanes attitude was when it made contact with the ground? I've heard tail first, also indicated by the short marks left on the ground. That would suggest a stall. Nose up. Or they were trying to climb.

People from the plane told on Dutch National television they heard loud engine noise just before they hit the ground and thought they were trying to get higher off the ground.

Offline joeyb747

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Re: Turkish Airliner Crash
« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2009, 09:07:43 PM »
Like full throttle power? TOGA maybe?

Offline hakan737

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Re: Turkish Airliner Crash
« Reply #43 on: February 27, 2009, 08:44:32 AM »
Quote
how much fuel was there on board?

should be enough for holding over EHAM+1st divert distance to fly+holding over diverted airport. I think they are add 2nd divert airport on the flightplan  if necessary.

@joeyb747

yes that information is true. The most of Turkish pilots comes from Turkish Air Force. Air Force pilots are retires (or get rights to leave air force) around 35-45 years and then they are continue (if they want)  to fly in Turkish Airlines or any other Turkish Companies. There is a protocol between Turkish Airlines and Turkish Air Force. When the Air Force pilots begin job in Commercial Airlines they have at least 3000-4000 flight hours. Ofcourse all of them gets licence conversion training and type training before take the right seat and they are begin of thier new life as first officer. BEsides Turkish Airlines has own flight training center last few years, before that they were trained a lot of civil pilots from 0 hours. Also THY has a contract with an aviation university in Eskisehir city, Eskisehir Anatolin universty,Civil aviation school which is only one university  based flight training center (pilot and air traffic conttoller). A few universities also have their own aviaiton programs about flight training but they didn't start to flights.

at this accident, one of pilots who was former Air Force pilot also one the most experienced flight instructor of THY. On the righ side seat pilot who was also newly former Air Force pilots but still on line training for preparing to become first officer.Third pilot was comes from civil training schools with his own capabilities but even he was younger, more experienced than line trained pilot as senior first officer. Third pilot was in there as observer pilot for if necessary.

according as eyewitness says that; plane stuck the tail first and then hit the ground . Some of them says there wasn't engine sound while at seen nose up. Probably captains tried to as can as get to be slower the plane and increased angle of attack.(they says thay should be do for don't want to hit on highway)

We will see what happened between captured ILS and impact point  after decrypted of FDR and CVR.

p.s sorry for my english.


Offline andreblt

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Re: Turkish Airliner Crash
« Reply #44 on: February 27, 2009, 12:45:28 PM »
The co-pilot was on one of his first trips on the type.
The third crewmember was a so-called buddy pilot who comes along in case something happens to the captain. He can then assist the inexperienced co-pilot in landing the airplane.
From this we can assume that a fair amount of training was being conducted on the flightdeck making it ever more strange that a slowly decaying airspeed went unnoticed.
Let's recap the events.

The aircraft is fully configured at 3NM in approx. 1000ft with Flaps 30 on speed and on glideslope.
The vertical speed seems a bit high though as with an airspeed of 150 knots approx 800 ft/min rate of descent would result in a 3 degrees glide path.
The approach looked fairly normal until 600ft in regards to glide path and speed.
Then something odd happens as the speed starts to decay.
For some unknown reason(s) proper speed management was not maintained, or maybe they assumed the autothrottle was still engaged when it was not.
The mistake was only noticed very late down the approach and they were caught without options on a low energy/low altitude scenario.
They tried to initiate a GA (survivors state a sudden increase in engine power shortly before impact).
There is not enough altitude to recover and with the ground approaching fast the pilot instinctively pulls the aircraft into a low speed stall.
Witnesses on the ground describe nose high attitude, followed by a dive to the ground.
The aircraft hit the ground tail first in a high rate of descent with low forward speed. This is obvious from the photos of the crash scene.

In my opinion this accident was caused due to the pilots inability to maintain the proper approach speed.
Maybe they were distracted by something as it seems they never checked in with the tower after hand over from the approach controller.
Waiting for the FDR and CVR information to be released.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 05:05:55 PM by andreblt »

Offline BerendBotje1

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Re: Turkish Airliner Crash
« Reply #45 on: February 27, 2009, 02:49:51 PM »
Maybe they were distracted by something as it seems they never checked in with the tower after hand over from the approach controller.
Nice recapture of the event, but I do not agree that they never checked in with the tower after the handover by approach.
What about missing this part in the recording from the LiveATC stream because the scanner might stopped on another frequency at that moment?

Offline andreblt

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Re: Turkish Airliner Crash
« Reply #46 on: February 27, 2009, 02:56:48 PM »
Two independent separate feeds (EHAM and EHAM2) monitor the tower. Both did not register THK 1951 on the tower freq. You could be right but it seems unlikely both feeds missed it.

Offline BerendBotje1

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Re: Turkish Airliner Crash
« Reply #47 on: February 27, 2009, 03:32:23 PM »
According to the stream info only EHAM#2 has all the tower frequencies in the scanner. Also the delivery, start/up en ground frequencies are in this stream. When I listen to the recording of 0900z a lot of clearance, push/back and ground RT is heard as well as take off clearances from the main tower. Not so unlikely the feed missed the check in. :wink:

Offline andreblt

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Re: Turkish Airliner Crash
« Reply #48 on: February 27, 2009, 05:04:27 PM »
You are right. I stand corrected.
There is a good chance the transmission was missed.

Offline hakan737

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Re: Turkish Airliner Crash
« Reply #49 on: February 27, 2009, 05:31:44 PM »
do we have chance to find track of NWA60 which is landed shortly before THY1951?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 06:18:30 PM by hakan737 »