LiveATC Discussion Forums
Air Traffic Monitoring => Listener Forum => Topic started by: Lezam on September 21, 2008, 05:33:47 PM
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Keep an eye, or an ear, out for a Lockheed Electra tonight at JFK ;)
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k312/shepmp/electra2.jpg)
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We just taxied by it a few hours ago. I about snotted diet coke out of my nose when I saw that parked at T4. Wasn't expecting that one.
JFK is in a "funny" situation. Apparently they have new rules now on departing 13R while landing on 22R, which make it a major pain, due to the not-near misses they had earlier in the year.
The controllers were being completely unhelpful when someone kindly asked what the new rule consisted of so they could tell the passenger why being number 18 in line for takeoff meant over an hour delay.
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I have noted a constant theme in your post's with regards to the abilities of the controllers at JFK.
The new procedure with regards to 22R arrivals and 13R departures requires that the 13R departure SHALL have commenced takeoff roll prior to the 22R arrival being on an eight mile final. I will not judge the procedure but I WILL follow the rules, I have NO choice!!!
Most of the air carrier community at JFK believe the new procedure to be extreme and will create reduced efficiency. Now from the tone of your post "C157" I would put you into the group that does not favor the new rules, and if I am wrong I have no doubt you will correct me. From the controller's perspective the pedantic rule is akin to the pilots inability to accept runway intersection departures due to lack of performance data when the intersection offers an extra 100 feet of runway, but since I don't have the data I can't do it. ( eg @ JFK 31L from "k" versus "KA") Logic would dictate that 100 additional feet would have little impact to ac performance.
As to the controller not being helpful in explaining the procedure I would offer that since I can determine the company you work for due to the ac type, should you want the name and the phone number of your company's NY based ATC liaison who is very familiar with JFK's operation just let me know. I will forward that info to you, but not in this public forum. While I know this info would not be real time and helpful at that exact moment you appear to have some very strong opinions about the atc system in NY and this individual could be a helpful conduit to shed some light on the nuances of atc in NY.
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EIGHT mile final? thats rediculous! You can shoot that gap with a plane on a 3-4 mile final.
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Rosie -- I was going to ask what the specifics were; thanks for posting.
(whoops! typo!)
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"I was going to ask what the specifics were; that's for posting"
I am not sure what you are asking?
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Sorry.
Before your post, I was going to ask everyone what the specifics of the new 'rule' at JFK was. You cleared it up for me though, so I didn't have to post :) I was just curious about the new spacing required.
Thanks.
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Just out of curiosity, how did you obtain the informatiom?
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EIGHT mile final? thats rediculous! You can shoot that gap with a plane on a 3-4 mile final.
While I won't say that it is ridiculous, I do have to agree, it is a bit farfetched that they can't be less than an 8 mile final. Normal Operations at KLAS have jets departing 25R, while arrivals are 3 - 5 out on final for 19L/R, or just turning base to final 5 - 6 miles out.
My guess is that it would also have to do with the aircraft type...?
BL.
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Rosie,"I have noted a constant theme in your post's with regards to the abilities of the controllers at JFK"
Rosie, just to straighten this out before anyone gets the wrong end of the stick. Cessna's "theme" has nothing
to do with the abilities of the NY controllers (They are good at their job like the majority of controllers everywhere).
What has been commented on numerous times is the attitude of the NY controllers, not there ability to perform.
:mrgreen:
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Greetings fellow ATCnetters. Sorry for my absence. Stupid work keeps getting in the way. But now back to the fun.
Rosie, thank you very much for simply defining what the new rule is. When we were all in line last week, things were going PAINFULLY slow. 8 mile gaps would be the reason.
I assume you know that we, as part 121 pilots, have our hands tied when it comes to takeoff performance calculations. I know very well that my aircraft, at its maximum designed takeoff weight, will depart 13R from November without any problems. But I almost cry when the controllers ask me if I can accept it, but we cannot simply due to the fact that my company doesn't include that information on our TLR (takeoff and landing report).
Just curious, do you work in the JFK tower? If so, we definitely have to meet up some time and talk shop.
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Yes I do, and I believe that also answers this question as well:
Just out of curiosity, how did you obtain the informatiom?
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rosie check your inbox
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Back to the original post, what was the Electra doing at T4 that evening?
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If I'm not mistaken it was a special guest at the opening of jetblue's new terminal 5.
jetblue had a special event for former twa employees to show them what had been done to their old terminal,show them around, that sort of thing.
Too bad the TWA Connie wasn't available for the event as well.