REWORK OF THE ZDC/ZNY/ZOB FEED STRUCTURE

[MIAMIATC]

The frequencies listed on each of the 4 feeds are all over the place. some listed that are on one are actually on others.

SUGGEST

NUMBER 1
125.575
127.175
125.325
134.325
134.6
1321.

NUMBER 2
133.975
126.875
132.275
132.525
125.45

NUMBER 3
120.975
121.375
120.75
127.7
132.55
132.05

NUMBER 4
118.975
128.3
121.0125
133.125
124.525

[RonR]

I will take a look at the feeds when I'm home later and see what's going on. Thanks.

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[RonR]

OK, I went through the four JFK area feeds and corrected one or two mistakes that I found.  The frequencies on the four feeds now match what is shown on the Liveatc website.  The arrangement of frequencies across the four feeds has not changed.

On JFK#1, for example, flights coming up from the south that are on ZDC 125.45 will get handed off to ZNY 125.32 and then to ZBW 125.575...ZNY 128.675 and 134.375 are both still in the list because they are backup frequencies that get used from time to time, especially 128.675.

On JFK#2, flights going south will come from ZBW 124.52 (on one of my other feeds) and get handed off to ZDC 133.125, then to 121.375 or 120.975 and then to 120.75.  Flights going north will use the same frequencies in the opposite order.  If any of these northbound flights go to JFK, they would start their decent on ZDC 133.125 and get handed off to ZNY 118.97.

On JFK#3, you will hear departing JFK flights on ZNY 128.3 get handed off to ZDC 133.125 or to ZNY 133.5.  Flkights on ZNY 133.5 going to JFK will get handed off to ZNY 28.3.  Westbound flights descending into Philly will come on to ZNY 128.3 and then get handed off to ZDC 127.7

And lastly, on JFK#4, flights on ZNY 134.6 can get handed off to ZDC 121.02 or to ZNY 134.32 depending on the direction they are going.  The ones handed off to ZNY 134.32 eventually end up on ZDC 133.975.  Usually, they first get handed off to ZNY 133.475 (available on another feed) and then to ZDC 133.975 but later at night they may go directly from 134.32 to 133.97.  I've heard ZNY 128.675 used as a backup for 134.32 so that's why it's on this feed also.  Actually, 128.675 has been used as a backup for many different ZNY frequencies...JFK#4 also includes one other frequency that is not listed on the Liveatc website: ZNY 132.175.  This frequency is not currently covered by any other Liveatc feed and since it is a rather busy frequency, I decided to include it on JFK#4 for the time being.

Ron

[MIAMIATC]

I suggested the setup that I posted as to break the area into quartered centralized areas seperated by NW/NE/SW/SE since I lived up in that area for 40 years before moving to Florida. Ron if you want to exchange e mail addys please PM me and Illo explain why I suggested those areas .

[JetScan1]

Hi Ron and Dave,

First off I want to say thanks for providing the feeds, great reception, very much appreciated ! To be clear I'm happy no matter how you have them set up but thought I'd throw out a few observations just for the sake of discussion. I'm not complaining, this is just my "Obsessive Complusive ARTCC Monitoring Disorder" (OCAMD) showing.

on JFK#4, flights on ZNY 134.6 can get handed off to ZDC 121.02 or to ZNY 134.32 depending on the direction they are going.

As far as New York Metro departures and typical traffic flows go I think you will find 134.60 almost always hands off to 134.32 and not to 121.02. As for 121.02, used for southbound routings, the main flow is 118.97 to 121.02 to 132.55/120.97/121.37. Also when traffic is light 121.02 is combined with 133.12. For these reasons I would remove 121.025 from #4 and put it on #2.

Lately as noted on the other thread, ZDC has been combining 132.55 with 120.97 so I would add 132.55 to the #2 as well for coverage.

On Radio #4 I would add 132.10. This frequency is combined with 134.60 when traffic is light and handles the New York Metro flow in basically the same area/direction (southwest) as 134.60. (basically 134.60 over fixes LANNA, BIGGY, and 132.10 over fixes NEWEL, ZIMMZ, PARKE).

Radio #3 is good but I would add 125.92 for coverage as this sector seems to be usually combined with 133.50. This would compliment the ZNY New York Center (JOBOC Sector) radio that has good controller reception on 133.50/125.92 but poor aircraft reception.

I have mixed thoughts on Radio #1. It's kinda overloaded with the ZDC frequencies that are primarily northbound with EWR and LGA arrivals combined with the ZNY frequencies that are primarily southbound. I'm thinking it might be better to remove the ZDC freqs and just keep the ZNY ones on #1 and put 132.17 on #1 for similar area coverage.

The ZDC northbound freqs need there own feed. What MIAMIATC suggested with his Radio 2 idea makes sense. Without 133.97, that should be on your Radio #4 grouping.

This is what I would do.

Radio #1
125.575
127.175
125.325
132.175
128.500 - spare

Radio #2
134.600
132.100
134.325
133.975
134.375 - spare
128.675 - spare
124.775 - spare

Radio #3
126.875
132.275
125.450
132.525

Radio #4
128.300
127.700
132.050 (combines with 127.70)
133.500
125.925
121.125 - spare

Radio #5  (use the ZNY ATL86/ZDC SIE54 radio)
118.975
121.025
133.125
132.550
120.975
121.375
134.025 - spare

I know there is no Radio #5, but this area is already covered very well by the "ZNY ATL86/ZDC SIE54" radio. On that radio I would remove 133.50 which is already covered on two other radios, as well as remove 125.32, covered by the JFK radios, and replace it with the closer ZDC sectors (132.55/120.97/121.37).

IMHO this would be the best way to optimize coverage in the area, without having too many frequencies on any one radio, avoid overlap between radios, and take into consideration geographic area and primary traffic flow.

Anyway just a suggestion. Again I'm very happy having the feeds available, however they are set up. Thanks to all who provide these Center Radios ! Although it's not helping my OCAMD problem.

JS

[RonR]

BTW Jet, do you happen to know where the RCAG for ZDC 133.97 is located?

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[JetScan1]

do you happen to know where the RCAG for ZDC 133.97 is located?

Falls Church RCAG. It's about 7 nautical miles northwest of the DCA airport. Google Earth it at N38 54 12.3 W077 10 30.6

[JetScan1]

On the subject of the Falls Church RCAG. If anyone lives around that area it would make a great location for a dedicated Center feed, 126.875 is also transmitted from there. You can probably get them from the vicinity of the IAD airport (12 nautical miles away) or where those LiveATC feeds are located near the airport there ? (Both frequencis can be very very busy, two stand alone feeds would be ideal).

The latest FAA AFF data also shows high frequencies 135.525 and 132.775 located at the Falls Church RCAG site. I have never heard of either of these frequencies in use and don't see them listed in any ZDC documents ? Probably just a case of the FAA data being wrong or out of date ? Which is not uncommon. Anyone in that area ever hear them being used ?   

[RonR]

Hey Jet,

On a side note, ZNY 124.77 is active today...can't hear it too well from my location but some transmissions do come through...found out that this frequency is covered on the ZNY HAR feed with excellent controller reception...thought you'd like to know (though somehow I have the feeling you already knew that...)

[dave]

On the subject of the Falls Church RCAG. If anyone lives around that area it would make a great location for a dedicated Center feed, 126.875 is also transmitted from there. You can probably get them from the vicinity of the IAD airport (12 nautical miles away) or where those LiveATC feeds are located near the airport there ? (Both frequencis can be very very busy, two stand alone feeds would be ideal).

The latest FAA AFF data also shows high frequencies 135.525 and 132.775 located at the Falls Church RCAG site. I have never heard of either of these frequencies in use and don't see them listed in any ZDC documents ? Probably just a case of the FAA data being wrong or out of date ? Which is not uncommon. Anyone in that area ever hear them being used ?   

I used to spend quite a bit of time in that area but never heard activity on that RCAG...I will find out for sure from ZDC.

[AeroBill]

I can confirm 124.775 is in use. Hear both air/ground comms. Understand it is a secondary frequency,
used when required. Thanks Ron for alerting us that it is on the Harrisburg feed, but not listed. That brings
up another question. Can the feed providers keep their frequency list up to date for us. I note the
North Mountain NY feed also carries 134.625, but not listed. I understand some feeds may be just
trying out the frequency for a test period. Also regarding the frequency lists for a feed can they be
put in frequency ascending order? Much easier to find if you are looking for a certain frequency.
(Yes, I know you can do a frequency search also).
Thanks,
Aerobill

[AeroBill]

Correction: No Mountain frequency should be 124.625 which is carried but not listed.
Aerobill

PS: If a Center combines frequencies this may explain why sometimes you hear
      an unlisted frequency. I just listened to No. Mountain for 124.625 and was
      not on. Maybe it was combined in the past at times with other No Mountain
      frequencies by the NY Center.

[RonR]

ZNY 127.725 is another unlisted frequency on the North Mountain feed with excellent controller reception. It is used by ZNY overnight and seems to take the place of a number of other frequencies; ZNY 125.325 just handed off a flight to that frequency  (243 am local time).

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[JetScan1]

dave,

I used to spend quite a bit of time in that area but never heard activity on that RCAG...I will find out for sure from ZDC.

It's a few years ago now but last time I was in the vcinity of IAD I could hear the controller's on 133.97 and 126.87 about 3/3. Interested to hear what your sources have to say. Anyone else in that area with reception reports on these two frequencies ?

Aerobill,

I can confirm 124.775 is in use. Hear both air/ground comms. Understand it is a secondary frequency, used when required.

124.775 is listed as "Sector 08 BRNAN", and extends from FL340 and above and sits on top of 133.47 and 134.32. However I've never actually heard it used as a stand alone sector, last time I did it was used as a backup to replace 134.32. Could you tell if they were using it as a stand alone sector this time ? Maybe I can figure it out from the archives ?

If a Center combines frequencies this may explain why sometimes you hear an unlisted frequency. I just listened to No. Mountain for 124.625 and was not on. Maybe it was combined in the past at times with other No Mountain frequencies by the NY Center.

During the day 132.150 (RCAG North Mountain) combines into 124.625 (RCAG Flint Hill) as required. When the sectors are combined the controller seems to continue to simulcast on 132.15 even though the aircraft are all on 124.625. So when they split off 132.15 you wont hear the controller working 124.62 but should still hear the aircraft, although some fringe areas of this sector are very weak from this radios location.    

ZNY 127.725 is another unlisted frequency on the North Mountain feed with excellent controller reception. It is used by ZNY overnight and seems to take the place of a number of other frequencies

127.725 is listed as "Sector 72 Selinsgrove", and extends from FL340 and above and sits on top of 132.875, but again like 124.775 I've never heard it used as a stand alone sector either. A few times I've heard the controller on 127.725 simulcasting with 132.875 but not a stand alone sector (FL340 and above only). This was during the day shift.

On the night shift 127.725 is listed as the primary for all ZNY Area "D" sectors, which include frequencies 132.15, 124.62, 128.57, 134.80, 124.90, 123.62, 118.55.  

Attached is my updated ZNY High Altitude chart that might make things a bit clearer ?

 

[dave]

Regarding the Falls Church RCAG....here is the current data:

126.875 Brooke ZDC12 RCAG is Falls Church, VA
133.975 Pinion ZDC04 RCAG is Leesburg, VA

Not sure our current receiver site(s) are close enough to either of these two transmitters but we'll do some testing.

[RonR]

Hey Jet,

Just to add to all of your info, when I heard 124.77 being used it may have been in place of 133.47, can't be certain though. Or maybe since this was later at night, it may have been in place of 134.32. I believe that normally 133.47 is combined with 134.32 overnight with the controller simulcasting on 133.47.

And while listening to the North Mountain feed last night I heard a controller but not the aircraft. Afterwards I found out that the controller I heard was working aircraft on 132.17 so he was obviously simulcasting on another frequency, just not sure which one. Maybe 121.32? Or maybe 124.77? Couldn't tell. He was handing off aircraft to KJFK inbounds over LENDY.

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[RonR]

As an added note, just heard this morning (800AM local) a handoff (UAL581) to ZNY 127.72...

And as of 1130AM it's still being used...

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[JetScan1]

Regarding the Falls Church RCAG....here is the current data: 126.875 Brooke ZDC12 RCAG is Falls Church, VA - 133.975 Pinion ZDC04 RCAG is Leesburg, VA

Thanks for the info. Interesting, no mention of any transmitters from the main facility at Leesburg in either the latest SOP or FAA AFF. Both show both frequencies at Falls Church.

since this was later at night, it may have been in place of 134.32. I believe that normally 133.47 is combined with 134.32 overnight with the controller simulcasting on 133.47.

If it was late at night probably not a stand alone sector then, probably subbing for 134.32 ?

while listening to the North Mountain feed last night I heard a controller but not the aircraft. Afterwards I found out that the controller I heard was working aircraft on 132.17 so he was obviously simulcasting on another frequency, just not sure which one. Maybe 121.32?

Probably 121.32, it's part of "Area C" which also includes 132.17, 132.60, 133.15, 133.35, 134.45 and on the midnight shift they throw in ELM and BGM approach. All sectors combine and they use 132.17 as the midnight primary. Usually they turn off 121.32 when they arent using it but I guess they leave it on and simulcast sometimes. Check 132.60 as well, might hear the controller there too if 121.32 is turned off ?

The ZNY inland sectors are divided into the following areas and on the overnight shift they combine all sectors in each area and have one designated frequency. Although as noted might still be simulcasting on some of the other frequencies ?  

Area A - 133.47, 134.32, 124.77, 132.20, 133.17, 135.45
- overnight not designated so might use more than one ? Seems to be 134.32 as you mentioned.

Area B - 125.32, 127.17, 132.10, 134.60, 118.97
- overnight 125.32

Area C - 132.17, 121.32, 132.60, 133.15, 133.35, 134.45
- overnight 132.17 and includes BGM and ELM approach

Area D - 132.87, 128.57, 127.72, 132.15, 124.62, 124.90, 134.80, 123.62, 118.55
- overnight 127.72

[RonR]

Thanks for all that Jet!  And if you didn't see it in an earlier post, ZNY has been using 127.72 all morning...

[AeroBill]

JetScan:

"Attached is my updated ZNY High Altitude chart that might make things a bit clearer"
Couldn't find this in your post. Can you post it again?
Thanks,
Aerobill

PS: Re: 124.625 on North Mountain. I heard aircraft on 124.625 on my scanner, but not
      Ground. I did hear both aircraft and Ground on the North Mountain feed. Not sure if
      this was a simu-cast or not as I'm too far from the Ground transmitter site. Same for
      124.775. Ground side on feeder site; only aircraft on scanner.

[JetScan1]

AeroBill,

Couldn't find this in your post. Can you post it again?

It's there attached to that post. You need to be logged into the website to see it.

[JetScan1]

ZNY has been using 127.72 all morning.

I did hear 127.72 in use earlier, now seem to be back to using 132.87 again (checked at 1600 EDT/2000 UTC).

[AeroBill]

JetScan1:
Yeah. Forgot about being logged in. Got the ZNY map. By the way great job on the map. You show the new
(I think)  "BOTLS" intersection, even though the FAA Hi/Low Altitude maps I just got don't show it yet, though
the controllers continue to refer to it. As always you are right up-to-date and accurate.

Thanks,
Aerobill

[JetScan1]

You show the new (I think) "BOTLS" intersection, even though the FAA Hi/Low Altitude maps I just got don't show it yet

BOTLS is on the HYPER6 arrival. They usually don't put all the STAR waypoints on the enroute Low/High charts, so if you hear a waypoint and cant find it on the enroute charts check the STAR charts.

http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1603/05100hyper.pdf

On my charts as reference I try to include the common waypoints you hear traffic getting cleared to. I still have a few to add to the ZNY chart. If you hear any common ones I'm missing let me know and I can add them.

[RonR]

I have some suggestions for waypoints:

LENDY (JFK arrivals from west crossing at FL190)
JERSY (DCA arrivals from north crossing at FL280 (I think...))
HAYED (EWR arrivals from west crossing at FL280)
MARRC (LGA arrivals from west crossing at FL280)

Ron