ZJX calls ZDC and ZNY "idiots"

[cessna157]

Okay folks, this was definitely a first for me.  Yesterday, I flew (or attempted to fly) Comair's flight 513(COM130) from TPA-BDL.  Around the CHS area, ZJX informs us that Washington Center has completely stopped all northbound traffic due to a couple cells in their sectors.  She said that there was a sector that was holding 3, count 'em, 3 aircraft in their sector and refused to accept any other flights.  Unfortunately we were around the CHS area working through the massive line of weather that plagued the entire eastern seaboard and they needed to put us into holding.  We negotiated a custom-made fix (ahh yes, that's the advantage of RNAV GPS/FMS) and went into holding about 50 miles off the coast abeam CHS.....for over 90 mins.  While we were out there holding, the controller was telling us about her predicament with ZDC and that they were idiots for not taking any traffic.

To make a long story short, we didn't have enough fuel to hold for the additional hour that they were predicting.  So she worked out another route (you can see our sudden change of route below) and we finally made it up to the BDL area.  Then, of course, Murphy's law took full effect, and on approach into BDL, a thunderstorm parked itself right on top of the airport.  Unfortunately, our prior "fun" burned all of our extra holding fuel and we had zero to spare, and had to make a quick diversion to ALB.

So, I challenge you guys (who are much better than I am) to find the clip, if it exists, of the controller's harsh words of her coworkers to the north.  We were talking with ZJX, abeam CHS, at FL370 (not sure of what sector or freq).

Here's our not-so-direct route:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/COM130/history/20080807/2207Z/KTPA/KALB

[dave]

Sounds like a rough day.  I wouldn't want to be a jet driver on days like we have been having in the Northeast lately with all the low pressure and build-ups all over.  Nor do I envy the controllers who do their best every day to accommodate rapidly changing weather.

Nothing personal, but I hope nobody finds that clip.  That's the last thing we need.  To understand the full reasoning behind the shutout, the ZJX controller would have needed to see a little beyond the next sector.  There very well could have been circumstances that dictated refusing the handoff.  ZJX has its challenges, and so do ZDC and ZNY.  They're just different - different airspace, different traffic volume, different airports.  I am sure that controller was just reacting to her own stress - we don't need to highlight and glamorize mistakes like that.  I am also sure, on reflection, she regrets saying something like that - just a sign of the times in an already stressed system.  Add the summer weather and it just makes things worse.

Sorry you had such a rough day - hope you don't get more of those!

-Dave

[cessna157]

Yeah, long days are no fun, but we all have them.  Today was changed from a day of 7 hours of flying down to a short 20 mins of taking our empty CRJ9 from ALB-BDL (I just think the autopilot can take a break today).

Honestly, I don't think the controller meant anything bad by it.  It was more of a joke than anything.  We were both kidding around as there was not much going on.  There was nothing either of us could do, so we basically threw our hands up and just laughed at the situation.

[mk]

exactly dave...couldn't agree more.   the ZJX controller needs to get a bigger picture of what goes on in the north east during a stormy day.  even if there is only two or three cells.   ZNY often ground stops from the southeast while allowing flights from the west coast and chicago.  just because ZDC wasn't taking traffic from ZJX, they may have been overwhelmed with delays and hold from the west and DC area up to new york just a sector north of the ZDC sector ZJX deals with.   things north of charlotte, nc work a little different than in the "cleared direct" south.

[KSYR-pjr]

Cessna157, I can empathize.   I have been commuting all weekend (Thu, Fri, Sun) back and forth between White Plains and Syracuse in this weather.  Yesterday AM the t-storms were just too numerous for my comfort and for the first time since coming down to HPN (February) I canceled my flight and worked from home.

As you know (but just to toss it out to the rest here), NY airspace is run by some of the best controllers in the business.  From what I am experiencing first-hand over the past year and have heard with other aircraft, this airspace is just saturated with IFR aircraft and it really takes very little to throw it into overload.  

The weather these past two weeks has been a hell of a catalyst, what with low pressure after low pressure parking almost directly over NY State and spinning up cold front and air mass tstorms throughout.

This morning once again all IFRs were stopped coming out of White Plains due to airspace saturation and this was the first day in awhile that the weather was relatively benign, so again it takes so little to overload the airspace.

I feel for you professional pilots who have to experience the pain of holding and groundstops and I also feel the pain the NY and Boston center controllers who are doing their best under these conditions.  

[gotigersgo]

Sector is called Georgetown and the frequency is 133.62.  I'm pretty sure the woman you are speaking about is retired now.  There are no women currently working in my area that I believe would be that unprofessional, so I'm pretty sure I know who you're talking about.    There are alot of frequencies at ZJX that are not on here as of yet, including none that I work.