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Air Traffic Monitoring => Listener Forum => Topic started by: cessna157 on September 07, 2008, 12:55:12 PM

Title: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: cessna157 on September 07, 2008, 12:55:12 PM
Been doing quite a lot of NY flying the other day and I heard several examples of NY controllers doing whatever they want, not being polite and professional, all knowing they will never be punished for their actions.

Was taxiing out of JFK the other day, they were on single runway departure ops, and they had an odd taxi flow going.  A JBU pilot asked the tower what their sequence was for their planning purposes (whether or not to shut down engine(s), update passengers on progress, etc.  Keep in mind, if a JBU is confused at the JFK flow, then it must be odd, as they are regulars there.  Tower's reply was "You should know better than to ask me that question.  Don't you know my voice?  I don't answer stupid questions like that.  Never ask me that."  It was a completely uncalled for remark.  As aircraft, we are the customers to the air traffic controllers, even the controllers will tell you that.  There is absolutely no reason to have such a harsh answer and completely avoid the question.  It wasn't as if it were busy.  This controller was just working 1 runway departures.

Then, after taxiing for 2 hours and finally getting airborne, I heard an N90 controller give an aircraft a clearance to a point that wasn't on his flight plan.  The aircraft quiered the controller about the clearance to get another fix that was on his FP.  The controller said something like "I don't care, just go direct Sparta anyway" which is an illegal clearance.  The aircraft then said that they could not do that without further instructions on where to go after that point. The controller ignored the request (again, it wasn't that busy).  The aircraft asked about the routing again, and the controller said "well then you shouldn't have filed that route then should you."  The aircraft (it was a larger charter outfit) said "Sir, I didn't file the flight plan, you're talking to the wrong person here, now what do you want me to do?"  The controllers response was "I want you to fly the airplane like I tell you to" and then finished up with "That is how we do it here in the New York airspace."

Anyone that knows the slightest bit about the NAS knows that the last statement could not be any more incorrect.  There are FAA procedures, not just unwritten procedures special for New York.
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: KSYR-pjr on September 07, 2008, 01:59:37 PM
The aircraft (it was a larger charter outfit) said "Sir, I didn't file the flight plan, you're talking to the wrong person here, now what do you want me to do?"  The controllers response was "I want you to fly the airplane like I tell you to" and then finished up with "That is how we do it here in the New York airspace."

I am not a professional like you all are but what about simply answering, "Unable," to the illegal clearance?

edit:  Oh, and I am in full agreement with you that their tone is completely unnecessary and bordering on unsafe if it went down as you describe.
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: glencar on September 07, 2008, 03:18:40 PM
Well, that wasn't me working that day. I'm not quite sure what day this was but it doesn't seem like there's any excuse for that sort of behavior.
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: cessna157 on September 07, 2008, 09:25:38 PM

I am not a professional like you all are but what about simply answering, "Unable," to the illegal clearance?

That's an option, but it wasn't that he was unable to fly there, he just needed a specific instruction.  If there is a point that is not on your route, you must be cleared to that point then receive further instructions.  What happens when you get to that fix and do not hear anything else from ATC?  You're in a bit of lala land there.  Its kind of like some arrival routes around the country that end at a certain fix and the instructions are to expect vectors to the final approach course.  Except as you're flying along and reach that point, you don't get anything else from ATC. 

When it comes to the NY airspace subject, it would be a little more expected if that were the case nationwide.  But it seems that it is just a localized problem, except for the ORD ground problem which someone mentioned a few weeks ago.
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: OrbitalDynamics on September 07, 2008, 11:54:47 PM
You've gotta' be talking about Captain Havoc...

He's surly, sarcastic and as you've said, rude and unprofessional, and gives us New Yorkers a bad name  :lol:.I was listening to JFK last night and he unloaded on some poor jetblue guy for shutting down one of his engines when "He wasn't told to do that".

Shortly after that the "Good Flight, Great Day" guy took over.
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: eastern tristar on September 08, 2008, 12:09:07 PM
I also heard the JetBlue pilot get unloaded on and couldn't believe it.  I heard him ask a question only to be told "you weren't paying attention to what I said already and then he said, "shut it down, your not going anywhere now"  I later heard the controller say, "no one ask me anything, I don't want to hear anyone on the radio"  He sounded totally stressed out but if this type of situation is to much for him, maybe he should be working a post that is less stressful.  This was Saturday afternoon when they were dealing with the rain and wind from tropical storm Hannah but I have been listening during worse weather (massive thunderstorms during the weekday evening rush a few weeks ago) and no one was losing their cool like this.  I don't know if this is the same guy, but I think it was Friday night when I heard a controller say "I don't do numbers" when I pilot ask where they were in line to take off.  I agree, this kind of attitude gives New Yorkers a bad rep.
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: soffs on September 09, 2008, 10:34:14 AM
Indeed, sounds bad. After all, hardly any pilot contacts the ATC unless they really need advice, help, etc. I would believe, as a mere passenger, that pilots ask questions only to make sure that things run smoothly and that traffic runs safely, not to annoy the ATCs.
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: KSYR-pjr on September 09, 2008, 10:48:26 AM
What happens when you get to that fix and do not hear anything else from ATC?  You're in a bit of lala land there.

If I were cleared to a fix that was not in my IFR flightplan I would be querying ATC long before arriving there as to what to do beyond that point.

Coincidentally I heard this scenario happen last Monday while flying down to White Plains.  A pilot checked in and stated that he was previously cleared to a point that was not on the flight plan.  The controller (I believe it was Boston Center in airspace somewhere over the Catskills) was quick to recognize the problem and excellent in getting the aircraft back onto his filed route.

It is very discouraging to hear stories like the JetBlue being told to shut down as if it were some type of kindergarten "time-out" for asking a legitimate question.  Talk about an abuse of power by an out-of-control controller.  

Normally I am all for the controller's plight against the FAA but something like this doesn't make compassionate friends on the yoke side of the mike.  IMO a supervisor should have stepped in and relieved the controller.
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: laylow on September 09, 2008, 05:32:09 PM
Any one have clips of these incidents?
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: djmodifyd on September 11, 2008, 08:30:12 PM
wow..that is HORRIBLE

they are just going to run off pilots....which is not very good job security
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: dave on September 12, 2008, 03:46:08 AM
they are just going to run off pilots....which is not very good job security

How does that work?  Neither one of them (controller or pilot) has much of a choice about being there.  :-)
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: Glavata on September 19, 2008, 03:24:41 AM
The pilot should have said "And don't you know my voice? You don't reply to me that way, now what is my sequence" hehe... Indeed truly unprofessional though.

PS. Anyway we can get these transmissions if they were recorded here ?
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: jdfmoc on September 19, 2008, 06:24:46 AM
In response to the N90 controller. Before you leave the airport and you get your clearance you should have to route. I have heard pilots complain about a route, saying it was not stating when clearly it was stated earlier they weren't listening. When you file a route especially in the direction of the northeast, if the route not exactly correct (according to the center) the fdio will kick out what is known as a plus routing. A plus routing is the preferred route. Depending on what he filed it cold be completely different. I had a plus routing kick out the other day and sent a guy 100 miles northwest before allowing him to go the direction he wanted to go which was southest. All it took was an amendment to his altitude and off he went southeast. So not uncommon for the N90 controller to clear that, happens all over the NAS.

The controller at Kennedy, that JFK what can i say. They are just rude their oh well...  Would not hurt my feelings if less aircraft flew in there, they have to many as it is already
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: bogman on September 22, 2008, 09:53:41 AM
Why doesn't anyone report these "BULLIES"  if they wanted to report you they wouldn't even think twice about it.

As Cessna said the airlines are the customers and the customer is always right ........If you know what I mean.


Bogman
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: KSYR-pjr on September 22, 2008, 11:27:56 AM
Why doesn't anyone report these "BULLIES"  if they wanted to report you they wouldn't even think twice about it.

From my vantage point it's not worth the time or the energy unless there was a safety of flight issue as a result of a controller's tirade.
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: ishtar on September 22, 2008, 02:09:00 PM
"As Cessna said the airlines are the customers..."

The airlines are not the customers.  :x
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: cessna157 on September 22, 2008, 02:59:34 PM
Well you can't just say that without a statement of opinion backing your viewpoint.

Do tell, why aren't the airlines, charters, fractionals, corporates, and GA flyers the customers?  And, if that's the case, who is?
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: ishtar on September 22, 2008, 03:34:17 PM
Aviation Safety Enhancement Act of 2008 (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h110-6493). Passed through the House by roll call vote (392-0-42). Awaiting action by the Senate.

Quote
(b) Modification of Initiative- Not later than 90 days after the date of enactment of this Act, the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration shall modify the customer service initiative, mission and vision statements, and other statements of policy of the Agency--

      (1) to remove any reference to air carriers or other entities regulated by the Agency as 'customers';
      (2) to clarify that in regulating safety the only customers of the Agency are individuals traveling on aircraft; and
      (3) to clarify that air carriers and other entities regulated by the Agency do not have the right to select the employees of the Agency who will inspect their operations.

(c) Safety Priority- In carrying out the Administrator's responsibilities, the Administrator shall ensure that safety is given a higher priority than preventing the dissatisfaction of an air carrier or other entity regulated by the Agency with an employee of the Agency.
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: tyketto on September 22, 2008, 03:37:42 PM
Aviation Safety Enhancement Act of 2008 (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h110-6493). Passed through the House by roll call vote (392-0-42). Awaiting action by the Senate.

Wow.. I wonder who wasn't present? IIRC, there are still 435 seats in the House of Representatives. I assume 392 voted yes, 0 voted no, 42 abstained? That's 434. Who missed out (not that it matters)?

BL.
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: cessna157 on September 22, 2008, 07:31:03 PM
Ha, oh come on.  That wording is legaleze stemmed from the buddy system the examiners were having with some of the airlines.

I'm not saying it's an official designation or anything.  What I was trying to indicate was that, in the service industry (which I would include ATC as), there is always a customer.  I do disagree with bogman in saying "the customer is always right."  Yes yes, I know, its our job to make them think they're always right.  But when you have some moronic passenger who says "You're lying about New York being on a ground stop due to weather, I just talked to my friend's cousin's mother's husband's sister's former roommate and they said it was bring and sunny out.

What I'm saying is the controllers are providing a service, and we, the aircraft commanders, are the customers.
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: goowe on September 22, 2008, 08:23:59 PM
What I'm saying is the controllers are providing a service, and we, the aircraft commanders, are the customers.

I get what you're saying... pilots are not literal, paying customers, but they are direct receivers of the air traffic control service...
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: bogman on September 23, 2008, 11:59:20 AM
I do disagree with bogman in saying "the customer is always right." 


What I'm saying is the controllers are providing a service, and we, the aircraft commanders, are the customers.

My phrasing was all wrong there ,sorry about that ,but Cessna you just cleared up what I was trying to say.What would happen to you if you turned around to a passanger and told him/her what to do and where to go.

You would be FIRED and I don't think these BULLISH controllers should be let get away with it.If a request is put in by a pilot like the guy from Jetblue,he should be treated with some respect,if there is a problem explain it, not jump down your neck over it.That is what you would do as a professional pilot...OK in your own mind you can call them every name on the sun,but you still have to be professional.

That is just my thought on the subject, why should they get away with it "Put them in there place now". Ask yourself if that was you who was the Jetblue pilot what would you do?.....and be honest with yourself.

Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: ishtar on September 23, 2008, 04:46:49 PM
What I'm saying is the controllers are providing a service, and we, the aircraft commanders, are the customers.

I disagree. If you were operating under part 91, I would agree with you. But I read your comment as a pilot operating under part 121 or part 135, and am forced to disagree. The true customers are sitting behind you. It is because of them that there is a need for the FAA and ATC. They have all agreed to go from point A to point B, and they are expecting to get there as fast, cheap, and safely as possible. The fastest and cheapest way to get from point A to point B is direct. By its very nature, ATC services makes air travel slower and more expensive, but in doing so makes it safer.

I'm not in the aviation business (just a private pilot); I'm in the education business. I've witnessed the effects of running the education system as a business and treating the students as consumers. It doesn't work. Oh, the students say it works just fine. They all get their As and get pushed out the door with their degrees, but not actually learning anything.

The US national airspace system is a lot like the US education system. They both do provide a service. However, in both cases, it is not the service that a business would undertake. [Removed rant about the state of education in the US; you don't want to read that] In the case of ATC, their job is to provide safety. In a business-sense, their service is to waste the money of their "customers". If the airlines are treated as customers, then the service they provide (safety) may be compromised. But in compromising safety, it will be more profitable to both the airlines and the FAA, which presents a huge conflict of interest.

I'm not saying that the controller was right or wrong in this case - just commenting on treating airlines as customers.
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: drfinal on September 24, 2008, 06:55:47 AM
The men and women that comprise the workforce of 'NY Air Traffic Control' are some of the finest controllers and people I have ever had the pleasure to know.

We controllers take pride in the job we do to get you and your passengers to your destinations 'safely, orderly, and expeditiously.' We always strive to do our best despite hundreds of veteran controllers retiring and hundreds more resigning leaving our work force decimated and exhausted.

We constantly worked short staffed with record traffic increases all summer. We don't come on this board and complain every time a pilot makes a mistake we just deal with the aftermath in the few seconds we have--for in the end air traffic controllers tell pilots where to go.

That my friends is professionalism.

Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: KSYR-pjr on September 24, 2008, 09:02:21 AM
We don't come on this board and complain every time a pilot makes a mistake we just deal with the aftermath in the few seconds we have--for in the end air traffic controllers tell pilots where to go.

Personally I would enjoy reading more pilot mistakes, as it provides a learning experience for the rest of us and also serves to knock down the level of arrogance sometimes displayed by pilots of all levels.   You should have seen the discussion here and in other pilot forums surrounding one pilot's very poor attempt to arrive at Oshkosh back in 2006.

There is no argument from me against the fact that the number of bonehead pilot moves far outweighs mistakes made on the controllers' side.   Overall, you controllers have my sincerest respect for continuing to perform at such a high level given your ever-declining work conditions.   Perhaps it is this consistently high professionalism that makes the occasional slip so discussion-worthy?

edit:  Oh, and I'll be the first to admit that I have made my share of mistakes and at least two resulted in a justified chewing out by the controller.  Happily there was no LiveATC feed at the time or at least one of them would have ended up in the clips forum here.  :-)   
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: camrnlendy on September 24, 2008, 12:32:31 PM
I think the mistakes some of the pilots are making at JFK are downright scary.  We are not talking readback errors either...  One airline in particular who is a RJ based feeder airline for a JFK major is notorious amongst ATCs in their constant and daily errors in the air and on the ground. 

Some of the low time and inexperienced pilots at this particular airline would be very embarassed if we posted these stories online.  In fact, it would unprofessional and improper to post anything that degrades the airline pilot profession.  I just wish others on this board would be a little more considerate when posting about the "errors" of ATC's on this forum, especially if those people are considering leaving their airline job and applying to the FAA to become a controller....

Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: dave on September 24, 2008, 12:33:55 PM
I think the mistakes some of the pilots are making at JFK are downright scary.  We are not talking readback errors either...  One airline in particular who is a RJ based feeder airline for a JFK major is notorious amongst ATCs in their constant and daily errors in the air and on the ground. 

Some of the low time and inexperienced pilots at this particular airline would be very embarassed if we posted these stories online.  In fact, it would unprofessional and improper to post anything that degrades the airline pilot profession.  I just wish others on this board would be a little more considerate when posting about the "errors" of ATC's on this forum, especially if those people are considering leaving their airline job and applying to the FAA to become a controller....

Amen.
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: cessna157 on September 24, 2008, 08:57:02 PM
The thread has actually taken a little bit of a turn away from topic.  Hopefully this can steer it back a little closer. 

Hopefully, we can all agree that we're all human (if we don't agree on that, we might need to rethink this through here).  Humans all make mistakes.  Its called human nature.  Nobody is perfect (although some would refute that point).  But we're all on the same side when it comes to protecting each other. 

Just the other day I heard a controller give a clearance for an aircraft to stop its climb at FL250 due to head-on traffic at FL260.  The aircraft clearly read back that he'd stop his climb at FL260, except the controller caught it.  I asked my capt if he heard that and he said "you might want to say something."  So I just keyed my mic and said "center, he just read back the wrong altitude."  Center came back and repeated the instruction and the other aircraft corrected himself and admitted he heard the original clearance wrong.  Center said "thanks for whoever caught that, it wouldn't have been good."

Okay, so after I said the thread is getting off topic, I drive it off even further.   My bad.

Originally my post was not intended to point out somebody's mistakes.  It was an observation that there are a few controllers, ironically both in the NYC area, that don't seem to be playing well with the other kids.
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: vicecitydriver on September 24, 2008, 10:31:53 PM
I believe that it is getting like this at a lot of airports nowadays, controllers not wanting to do their jobs. I recently flew an LSA to Mannassas Regional, which is inside the DC ADIZ (for nonpilots, this is THE most restricted airspace in the US, if not the world). They were giving us grief because they were unfamiliar with our type of aircraft while we were waiting for our transponder code to enter the ADIZ. We filed a flight plan and they are holding us up wanting to know unnecessary information about our plane. I would have expected better out of federal employees, especially in that airspace.

To add to the JFK situation, I have heard the same guy you are talking about many times doing very unprofessional things. One time, when he got mad because he had a Jetblue 2745 and a Jetblue 2547, he decided to declare NORDO on the ground frequency of one of the busiest airports in the world. This is absolutely ridiculous.

I am only a private pilot, so I don't have to talk to ATC much, but to all of the IFR pilots out there in the JFK area... you have my sympathy.
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: dave on September 24, 2008, 11:17:09 PM
You know, I don't doubt some of the pilot stories on here, but I have to say that as many times as I have flown in New York airspace, Boston airspace, Philly airspace, and many other places, I have yet to run into a rude controller.  Whether I was IFR or VFR, I just never had a bad experience.  Granted, I don't have as many hours as some of the jet drivers on here, but still.  It all sort of feels like some really frustrated folks on both ends of a straining system.

Still, part of the pilot/controller "relationship" is how you approach it as a pilot.  If you know what you're doing (or don't and just admit it) and you approach the conversation in a positive way, and adjust your requests and tone in a positive way, you get a better result.  Just like any other relationship in life.

Whether you're a controller or a pilot, leave the holier-than-thou attitude at home and we'll all get along a lot better and accomplish what we're all there for - getting home safe and alive, and as quickly as the system allows.

-dave
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: Jason on September 25, 2008, 07:50:40 AM
You know, I don't doubt some of the pilot stories on here, but I have to say that as many times as I have flown in New York airspace, Boston airspace, Philly airspace, and many other places, I have yet to run into a rude controller.  Whether I was IFR or VFR, I just never had a bad experience.  Granted, I don't have as many hours as some of the jet drivers on here, but still.  It all sort of feels like some really frustrated folks on both ends of a straining system.

Still, part of the pilot/controller "relationship" is how you approach it as a pilot.  If you know what you're doing (or don't and just admit it) and you approach the conversation in a positive way, and adjust your requests and tone in a positive way, you get a better result.  Just like any other relationship in life.

Whether you're a controller or a pilot, leave the holier-than-thou attitude at home and we'll all get along a lot better and accomplish what we're all there for - getting home safe and alive, and as quickly as the system allows.

-dave

I have run into plenty of rude controllers, but I normally laugh whenever they give me or someone else on the frequency an attitude.  I call it the stereotypical NY attitude in the cockpit.  Reality is you get a handoff a few minutes later anyway (at least in New York) so one cranky controller shouldn't really have much effect on you.  If you're looking for a shortcut and the controller won't give it to you, try the next one.  It's all about being respectful on both sides of the mic, whether or not it's reciprocal.  The more frustrated you get, the worse you are in the end.  I instill great trust in our controllers and I hope they see the same in us.  If you throw some humor into the mix, things lighten up a bit.

Safe flying...

Best,
Jason
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: drfinal on September 25, 2008, 02:20:23 PM
Quote from Jason..."I have run into plenty of rude controllers, but I normally laugh whenever they give me or someone else on the frequency an attitude.  I call it the stereotypical NY attitude in the cockpit.  Reality is you get a handoff a few minutes later anyway (at least in New York) so one cranky controller shouldn't really have much effect on you.  If you're looking for a shortcut and the controller won't give it to you, try the next one. "

I know you most likely didn't mean it to come out like this--seems like you're telling us a controller with an rude attitude is one who won't give you a shortcut.

Shortcuts although nice for the pilot/ passengers and just as nice for us controllers because they get you up and out quickly so we can move more traffic through our airspace are not always possible depending on how much of a shortcut you're looking for. There are many factors involved including traffic volume, the next controllers traffic volume, weather and so on...

I'm always happy to work on a shortcut for a pilot whether he asks me or not if it helps me and or the next controller and or it helps the pilot.

So with that said the other day when I was pretty busy and you asked for direct point x and I said, "Unable." Was it the fact that I said "Unable" that made me rude or was it my urgent tone...?

Because when I'm busy I always like to use an urgent tone on the freq--for some reason everyone listens better and responds vigilantly and except for the somewhat more frequent pilot that jumps in with both feet on his/ her initial contact and blocks me or a read back I rarely have to repeat instructions. I get a lot of "nice jobs" from pilots too.

Which leads me to believe that you may just be a little sensitive because maybe a couple of times you or some other pilot on freq got chewed out by a controller for a mistake (however small) that was made. Or maybe the controller was already in a bad mood because he got his a$$ handed to him on staggered 22's for 2 hours and just took it out on you or someone else which really wouldn't have been very nice of him at all but I know after a 2 hour session on any staggered config. I'm not in a very good mood either although I won't take it out on anyone on freq (but I'll say something under my breath when I un-key--which gets a few chuckles from my coworkers in the immediate vicinity and lightens the mood.)

The tone I've been getting from this thread is that some of you think all or most of us NY controllers are rude--which couldn't be further from the truth. We have our grouches as I'm sure you pilots do but for the most part we just want to come to work, do our jobs, and go home to our families.



Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: Jason on September 25, 2008, 03:18:23 PM
I know you most likely didn't mean it to come out like this--seems like you're telling us a controller with an rude attitude is one who won't give you a shortcut

Nope, that's a false inference that you were able to make quite a few paragraphs out of.  I'm not even saying anything remotely close to that -- controllers that won't give shortcuts aren't always rude, in fact the majority of them are so nice that they try their best to get one for you as soon as possible, or coordinate with the next sector prior a change of communication so the next controller is aware and looking out for any possible shortcuts.

What I'm trying to say is that there are a cranky controllers out there, we all have bad days.  That said, there are plenty of cranky pilots, too.  I fly the NY airspace so often I am accustomed to the various tones of each controller, in fact it's comforting to hear an attitude on the frequency sometimes after a long trip out west (you literally get to hear that you're home).

Believe me, I am so appreciative of our NY controllers.  They do an amazing job and always provide excellent service, and I truly mean that.  I enjoy coming down to the TRACON and thanking them as often as I can.  They make my job look simple most days.

Best,
Jason
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: drfinal on September 25, 2008, 03:22:02 PM
Well okay then--that's nice to hear.

And if you hadn't guessed--I like to write a little in my spare time.

Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: KSYR-pjr on September 25, 2008, 03:24:20 PM
So with that said the other day when I was pretty busy and you asked for direct point x and I said, "Unable." Was it the fact that I said "Unable" that made me rude or was it my urgent tone...?

My only thought when receiving an "unable" after a request is that there is some good reason why it cannot be granted.  If the controller is too busy to provide a courtesy reason for the "unable" soon enough I will usually hear it (crossing traffic, hand-off to another sector, etc.).  

Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: soffs on September 26, 2008, 08:18:58 AM
Whether you're a controller or a pilot, leave the holier-than-thou attitude at home and we'll all get along a lot better and accomplish what we're all there for - getting home safe and alive, and as quickly as the system allows.
Indeed. I'm only a mere passenger here (I only know how to ride a bicycle), but the point in any traffic is, you're not alone there.
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: glencar on October 01, 2008, 04:17:01 PM


To add to the JFK situation, I have heard the same guy you are talking about many times doing very unprofessional things. One time, when he got mad because he had a Jetblue 2745 and a Jetblue 2547, he decided to declare NORDO on the ground frequency of one of the busiest airports in the world. This is absolutely ridiculous.

I am only a private pilot, so I don't have to talk to ATC much, but to all of the IFR pilots out there in the JFK area... you have my sympathy.
Can you provide a tape of this alleged incident? If this really happened, it's unacceptable.

To any controllers in the DC area who have to deal with vicecitydriver, you ahve my sincere sympathies.
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: drfinal on October 01, 2008, 06:56:03 PM
Can you provide a tape of this alleged incident? If this really happened, it's unacceptable.



I think I found the mole.
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: cessna157 on October 01, 2008, 07:46:17 PM
Mole?  Like Mole Sauce?  Yuck!    :-D
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: NY Z Pilot on October 02, 2008, 11:37:17 PM
I brought my NY attitude down south, and when im back up north, ill still have it and will use it.
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: camrnlendy on October 03, 2008, 11:48:27 AM
dr.final, yes i think you are right...it seems that errr ahhh wants to hear replays...you have located the mole!
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: cessna157 on October 04, 2008, 06:34:18 PM
I would just like to say that I flew into N90 today and had quite a pleasant experience.  Even had a last-minute request that the controller happily accomodated and changed his arrival flow a little to assist us.
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: drfinal on October 04, 2008, 06:48:18 PM
See--we're not all rude ogres.   :lol:
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: cessna157 on October 04, 2008, 06:59:26 PM
Heh heh, yes, my point exactly.  Trying to win you guys some brownie points here.

Controller scratched my back, and I (we) returned the favor a couple mins later.  It all works out in the end.
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: drfinal on October 04, 2008, 08:24:08 PM
It all works out in the end.

That brings back memories--about 8 years ago a friend of mine is training this guy and he welds a couple but at the least second gets visual--barely. The he says to my friend, "I don't see what you're getting so upset about--it all worked out in the end."

Now every once in a while we blurt that out--or others funnies from over the years.

Here's another of my favorites:

"N12345 how are you navigating today?"

"Very well thank you."
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: mk on October 04, 2008, 09:18:18 PM
i heard a good one from a senior controller at work today:

i had heard it before on the internet but i found the true source...

back in the old days Piedmont was a major airline with a considerable hub at BWI.  Jets go the left side (33L), and props on the right (33R).   well,  this controller was sequencing a C130 with a few Shorts.  controller says, "baxter53, reduce speed to 110kts, following shorts traffic 4 miles ahead."  C130 pilot comes back, "what do you think the stall speed is in this thing?"  to which my fellow controller's trainer says, "i dunno, but i bet your co-pilot knows"   :-D


Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: CFD208 on October 05, 2008, 03:40:16 PM
Low and slow baby! C-130s rock!  Especially those HC-130s out of KFOK. *cough* *cough*  :-)
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: glencar on October 06, 2008, 04:35:04 PM
dr.final, yes i think you are right...it seems that errr ahhh wants to hear replays...you have located the mole!
Yo yo yo, I am just doubtful that the alleged incident happened. And if indeed it did happen, what was the context? I spoketh the Lord's name in vain last night & I could see someone excitedly running here to say how I was mixing church & state but I certainly had my reasons!
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: cessna157 on October 10, 2008, 03:20:26 PM
I fly into/out of JFK tonight.  Don't know what time, as our plane is delayed inbnd from JFK to where I start my day.   You guys gonna be nice to me?  I promise to be on my best behavior
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: tyketto on October 10, 2008, 03:52:14 PM
I fly into/out of JFK tonight.  Don't know what time, as our plane is delayed inbnd from JFK to where I start my day.   You guys gonna be nice to me?  I promise to be on my best behavior

<tongue-in-cheek>
Sure! But ask me a question, and I'll shut you down!  :-D
</tongue-in-cheek>

BL.
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: cessna157 on October 11, 2008, 12:29:04 AM
Whoever was working JFK final around 1945ish was pretty dern funny.  We were "cleared for the veeeeezual approach."  What a pleasant experience.  NY air traffic controllers are awesome. 
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: hurt82 on October 11, 2008, 06:16:17 PM
Not much the faa can do about NY atc.  Staffing is horrible and no one wants to work there.  Once you certify in one of the big facilities up there you are garanteed to be stuck there for awhile..
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: NY Z Pilot on October 11, 2008, 10:04:37 PM
Not much the faa can do about NY atc.  Staffing is horrible and no one wants to work there.  Once you certify in one of the big facilities up there you are garanteed to be stuck there for awhile..

not 100% true. That really only applys to 2 facilites up there...  N90 and NY center.
Title: Re: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control
Post by: glencar on October 11, 2008, 11:51:35 PM
Whoever was working JFK final around 1945ish was pretty dern funny.  We were "cleared for the veeeeezual approach."  What a pleasant experience.  NY air traffic controllers are awesome. 
A guy who just retired was noted for saying that & some of us copy that as an homage.