LiveATC Discussion Forums
Air Traffic Monitoring => Listener Forum => Topic started by: chefnoel on October 22, 2009, 06:32:01 PM
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http://www.marketwatch.com/story/northwest-pilots-slumber-miss-landing-strip-wsj-2009-10-22
http://www.cnn.com/2009/TRAVEL/10/22/airliner.fly.by/
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http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NWA188/history/20091021/2135Z/KSAN/KMSP (http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NWA188/history/20091021/2135Z/KSAN/KMSP)
There's the flight. NWA188 from KSAN to KMSP on Weds. The flightpath shows it well..
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Uhh yeah... "whoops."
Chalk up two for Delta this week.
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"The NTSB reported, that the crew told Air Traffic Control, that they had become distracted and had overflown Minneapolis and now requested to return.
The FAA reported, that according to post flight interviews the crew had engaged in a heated debate over airline policies and lost situational awareness."
from:
http://avherald.com/h?article=4219f00f&opt=0
Hmmm...engaged in a debate so deep that you don't hear radio calls for 80 minutes? :|
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There must be nothing worse than waking up and finding your co-pilot asleep. :evil:
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http://www.startribune.com/local/65619367.html?page=1&c=y
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"The NTSB reported, that the crew told Air Traffic Control, that they had become distracted and had overflown Minneapolis and now requested to return.
The FAA reported, that according to post flight interviews the crew had engaged in a heated debate over airline policies and lost situational awareness."
from:
http://avherald.com/h?article=4219f00f&opt=0
Hmmm...engaged in a debate so deep that you don't hear radio calls for 80 minutes? :|
Yeah I agree... something else happened here. You can't be so caught up in a debate that you forget that you're flying an airplane.
Also ran across a poorly written AP article on the accident that suggested that they should have had 15 million warning signs that they were approaching the airport. Ok, maybe not that many but they suggested that "cockpit displays, controllers trying repeatedly to reach, the city lights twinkling below" should have alerted them. Besides controllers contacting them (you would think they would hear someone else talking to them), I don't think the "cockpit displays" would have helped much (nothing jumps out and says "APPROACHING MINNEAPOLIS") and looking outside doesn't do much good at 37,000 feet. Besides it was night time and just because Minneapolis may look bright on the ground doesn't mean it does way up in the air. And if it was cloudy all bets are off. Plain and simple the pilots didn't do what they were supposed to do; they don't need 8-10 different things to tell them they are approaching their destination; they just need to pay attention.
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Does anyone have any audio related to this? If so, please e-mail me at etobias@ap.org. Thanks.
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I was wondering the same thing. I would like to hear the audio on this one. CNN also has an article on this now.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/TRAVEL/10/23/airliner.fly.by/index.html
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If you read the tracking logs:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NWA188/history/20091021/2135Z/KSAN/KMSP/tracklog
They descend and turn back west at approx 09:16PM CDT on the 21st (2am gmt +1 day so the 22nd), so comm must have been establish right before then.
Checking the archives for tower on that date, you can hear some comms with NW 188 here:
1:00-1:30 (approach):
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kmsp/KMSP-App-Oct-22-2009-0100Z.mp3
Nothing?
1:30-2:00 (approach->almost landing):
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kmsp/KMSP-App-Oct-22-2009-0130Z.mp3
Bit after half way through you can hear something about 188, sounds normal. Then 188 is talked into landing.
2:00-2:30 (approach->landing):
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kmsp/KMSP-App-Oct-22-2009-0200Z.mp3
Starts talking them down around 7 miles out, 4000 ft
I dunno, I don't hear much?
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I downloaded the approach feed, and the tower feed, and there is nothing interesting.
I guess I could put it all together, but doesn't seem worth the effort.
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"Officials suspect Flight 188's radio might still have been tuned to a frequency used by Denver controllers even though the plane had flown beyond their reach, said Church, the spokesman for the National Air Traffic Controllers Union. Controllers worked throughout the incident with the pilots of other planes, asking them to try to raise Flight 188 using the Denver frequency, he said."
From:
http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20091023/US.Northwest.Airport.Overflown/
I heard this on CNN Radio as well. Basically, they never changed frequency to Mini Center...
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The captain probably just said you got control wake me up in an hour...and the co pilot acknowledged then he got tired and fell asleep as well....it wouldnt suprise me.
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There must be nothing worse than waking up and finding your co-pilot asleep. :evil:
:-o QFT
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Sounds to me that somewhere along the line they missed something. Wrong Frequency? Misinterpreted command from the controller? These things happen
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Sounds to me that somewhere along the line they missed something. Wrong Frequency? Misinterpreted command from the controller? These things happen
You don't fly 100 mi past your destination at your cruising altitude because you missed a frequency change or had a simple misunderstanding.
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Do you remember Flight 522 operated by HELIOS AIRWAYS when both pilots became unconscious because faulty presurisation systems ... not a chance of happening something similar...? :|
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Do you remember Flight 522 operated by HELIOS AIRWAYS when both pilots became unconscious because faulty presurisation systems ... not a chance of happening something similar...? :|
Is there a chance? Yes. Is it likely / probable? No! Since the flight deck shares the same presurization / air supply as the cabin (Unless they where on Supplemantal 02), there would have been somebody else (Cabin crew) that would have lost conscioness too, and would have said something.
I am not sure about Airbus (If someone knows, please chime in). but at least on the Boeing 768/744. Once you get within about 20KM of your T/D (Top of decent.) if you have not already done so, you will get a chime, and an EICAS message, and Amber Master Caution to RESET MCP ALT. (Which is an indication for the flight crew to enter their next lowest hard altitude in the Altitude selector on the Mode Control Panel.
How did they also miss the SELCAL chime when their company called. The 744 also has a company option that if no buttons or radio trasmissions are made within a certain time, a warning alarm sounds, and you get a "NO CREW SLEEPING" message on the EICAS...
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"MINNEAPOLIS — The first officer of the Northwest Airlines jet that missed its destination by 150 miles says there was no fight in the cockpit, neither he nor the captain had fallen asleep and the passengers were never in any danger.
But in an interview with The Associated Press two days after he and a colleague blew past their destination as air traffic controllers tried frantically to reach them, pilot Richard Cole would not say just what it was that led to them to forget to land Flight 188."
""We were not asleep; we were not having an argument; we were not having a fight," Cole told The Associated Press."
From:
http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20091023/US.Northwest.Airport.Overflown/
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"WASHINGTON — Not sleeping, the pilots say. They were engrossed in a complicated new crew-scheduling program on their laptop computers as their plane flew past its Minneapolis landing by 150 miles — a cockpit violation of airline policy that could cost them their licenses."
From:
http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20091026/US.Northwest.Flight.Overflown/
...wow... :|
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wow! I cant believe they were on their laptops while flying the airplane.... thats so dangerous! If the flight attendant didnt ask about when they are expected to land, i fear the worst would have happened.
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Just think if they were on AirTran with their new WiFi they'd be playing on Facebook and find themselves in Milwaukee before they headed back to MSP.
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Even with headphones off and not monitoring comms, wouldn't the flight crew should have heard the SELCAL chimes?
Also, the reports I have read say that national guard fighters were "being prepared"...When Paine Stewart's learjet depressurized and lost comms 10 years ago, weren't they able to scramble intercept aircraft quickly compared to this incident?
Doesn't look like this flight crew has done their fellow pilots any favors in the arguments against big brother on the flight deck.
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Do you remember Flight 522 operated by HELIOS AIRWAYS when both pilots became unconscious because faulty presurisation systems ... not a chance of happening something similar...? :|
I am not sure about Airbus (If someone knows, please chime in). but at least on the Boeing 768/744. Once you get within about 20KM of your T/D (Top of decent.) if you have not already done so, you will get a chime, and an EICAS message, and Amber Master Caution to RESET MCP ALT. (Which is an indication for the flight crew to enter their next lowest hard altitude in the Altitude selector on the Mode Control Panel.
Good point as I was thinking this myself. Not to spark a Boeing vs. Airbus tirade, (I actuall like Airbus), BUT if this had been on a Boeing, AND they dialed in the lower alt restriction into the MCP, the plane would have automatically started going down at the TOD. I guess though that could have brought about a whole different set of problems.
I believe in the Airbus, the FMGC does NOT indicate you've missed the TOD. It will instead say "DRAG REQUIRED" indicating you are deviating from the path. Once you are far enough off the path I believe a message like "DESCENT PATH UNACHIEVABLE" or something to that affect appears. The plane will soldier on in HDG and ALT mode as did NWA 188.
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An update to this story on http://avherald.com/
"On Nov 27th the FAA released transcripts and audio recordings revealing, how air traffic control tried to raise the crew and how the crew finally reestablished contact. According to the transcripts the crew was handed off by Denver 28R/28RA to Denver Center 132.17, acknowledged the hand off at 23:57:01Z and was not heard anymore until 01:14Z, when the crew reported again at Minneapolis 13D.
An e-mail supposedly written by a friend of the captain on flight NW-188 says, that the captain had left the cockpit to use the restroom, when the first officer received the last frequency change (see Denver position 28RA) and selected a wrong frequency. He never got a reply on the new frequency, which actually was in use by Winnipeg in Canada. When the captain returned, the first officer did not report the frequency change. ATC chatter could be heard in the cockpit, so that the captain never had the idea they might not be in contact with ATC. They entered a discussion about the crew rostering and used their laptops for about 5 minutes. With a tailwind of about 100 knots they were faster than anticipated. When the flight attendant asked via interphone, when they would arrive, they checked with their navigation display, set at full range 320nm, and found themselves overhead Minneapolis, on reducing the range they identified their position at Eau Claire. Their ACARS did not have a chime, but a 30 seconds light to indicate new arriving messages. The crew had tuned 121.5 MHz, but may have turned down the volume over disturbing chatter. The captain is not trying to appoint blame to others, but to explain the events on board of the aircraft and takes full responsibility for the events."
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Good point as I was thinking this myself. Not to spark a Boeing vs. Airbus tirade, (I actuall like Airbus), BUT if this had been on a Boeing, AND they dialed in the lower alt restriction into the MCP, the plane would have automatically started going down at the TOD. I guess though that could have brought about a whole different set of problems.
Not entirely correct. Even with a lower ALT in on the the MCP. The A/P will not begin a descent even at TOD on it's own..
On the 763, The FMC will disengage VNAV and enter ALT HOLD, and will not climb or descend unless V/S is activated and changed, or VNAV button is pressed again, OR FLCH is pressed.
On the 744, The ALT INTERVENE button must be pressed, OR FLCH mode engaged, OR V/S mode is selected.
I am NOT sure if different companys can have different configurations though.
See the Boeing engineers are not as stupid as you think :)
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An update to this story on http://avherald.com/
An e-mail supposedly written by a friend of the captain on flight NW-188 says......."
Sorry but I don't buy it. That doesn't explain being out of contact for 1 Hr and 17 minutes, there is still more to the story.
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Its sad. All I can say is wow I no I am way late on this but I was trying to not post on this one. Seriously these guys hurt the industry more then shown at first glance. People now think all pilots do stuff like this. Its crap, and they should have no licences period. Well looks like big brother will be in the flight deck by the time I make it the airlines in a few years.
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"WASHINGTON — The Northwest Airlines pilots who overshot Minneapolis have blamed air traffic controllers in part for the incident, saying controllers violated procedures."
"FAA officials have said controllers repeatedly tried unsuccessfully to contact Northwest Flight 188 as it flew from San Diego across a broad swath of the continent. They've also said there were several shift changes during that time in which controllers going off duty who had handled the plane didn't inform controllers coming on duty that the plane was out of radio contact."
From:
http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20091207/US.Northwest.Flight.Overflown/
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"WASHINGTON — The Northwest Airlines pilots who overshot Minneapolis have blamed air traffic controllers in part for the incident, saying controllers violated procedures."
"FAA officials have said controllers repeatedly tried unsuccessfully to contact Northwest Flight 188 as it flew from San Diego across a broad swath of the continent. They've also said there were several shift changes during that time in which controllers going off duty who had handled the plane didn't inform controllers coming on duty that the plane was out of radio contact."
From:
http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20091207/US.Northwest.Flight.Overflown/
They were MIA for well over an hour during which time controller tried numerous ways to contact them. Even if controllers didn't do everything perfect the pilots have to carry the responsibility for doing their job of flying the plane (which they didn't do). I know they're fighting an uphill battle for their jobs, but that still sounds pretty weak.
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How dare they blame ATC. That's just insulting people's intelligence.
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I think they are just trying to find somewhere to divert the blame too. The bottom line is they missed the frequency change, and went out of contact. Crew Error.
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A little more info:
http://avherald.com/h?article=4219f00f&opt=0