LiveATC Discussion Forums
Air Traffic Monitoring => Listener Forum => Topic started by: Jonathan_tcu on November 11, 2005, 03:19:31 PM
-
Here is a good one. Last night, Thunder 202 requested to fly the MSA of 3200 or 3400 into Timmins. ATC stated "I wish I could, but I can't do that, for IFR non radar separation, I just can't do it. That would require me to basically shut down Timmins Airport. YOu can maintain 6000 feet though." Pilot replied "It's just to get us out of icing". ATC: " Ok, tell you what, maintain 6000 feet blocking 9000". Resolved.
-
I realize I'm no expert here, so I'm going to ask...
What are the reasons why a request like that wasn't allowed on a non-IFR flight? Also, what does it mean when the controller referred to it as "blocking 9000"? :)
-
What are the reasons why a request like that wasn't allowed on a non-IFR flight?
See below:
...for IFR non radar separation
Sounds like the you're confused. It was an IFR flight, but non-radar procedures (to my understanding of Jonathan's post)
Also, what does it mean when the controller referred to it as "blocking 9000"? :)
I believe that is the same as a 'block altitude' where the aircraft can freely climb/decend between the two altitudes given in the block altitude clearance. In this case, they were given so the aircraft had ample altitude to correct for altitude loss as a result of the icing in addition to giving the pilot different altitudes to see if he could aviod the icing conditions from persisting.
-
What are the reasons why a request like that wasn't allowed on a non-IFR flight? Also, what does it mean when the controller referred to it as "blocking 9000"? :)
I'm not familiar with Timmons procedures either but I would imagine the controller was unable to approve the desent to 3200 because of Timmons departures.
As for the blocking altitude, not to disagree with Jason, but my guess was it was probably so the pilot could find an "ice-free" ride somewhere within that block of 6000-9000.
-
You guys are correct. A lot of the time, traffic between Timmins and Moosonee is approved to fly a block altitude in blocks of 2000 ft min. Sometimes during the summertime, pilots will request blocked altitudes to avoid build ups. If there is no traffic, which is the most often the case, the pilots get their requests.
As for non-radar procedures, some are similar to radar separation, while others, like in Timmins, will require an aircraft to not depart the airport, if the weather is IFR. It's really irritating living in a city with non radar coverage. When I lived in the adjacent sector, North Bay/Sudbury, it was great hearing "You're radar identified on departure, turn right XX degrees to avoid traffic." While living up here, I always hear "You'll be on radar shortly". Runway headings are assigned the same way. Is this not confusing or what? :lol:
-
As for the blocking altitude, not to disagree with Jason, but my guess was it was probably so the pilot could find an "ice-free" ride somewhere within that block of 6000-9000.
I would agree with you. A block altitude is also something IFR pilots will request in moderate to severe turbulence, especially if they cannot maintain a specific altitude due to the bouncing around.
-
Thanks for all your comments! 8)
...It's really irritating living in a city with non radar coverage. When I lived in the adjacent sector, North Bay/Sudbury, it was great hearing "You're radar identified on departure, turn right XX degrees to avoid traffic." While living up here, I always hear "You'll be on radar shortly". Runway headings are assigned the same way. Is this not confusing or what?
If there's no radar there, what altitude are they assigned until they get identified? How are the runway headings assigned?
-
In a non-radar enviroment aircraft are usually given non-radar routes and assigned altitudes based on other non-radar traffic in the area. I assume you meant tower assigned headings or departure headings instead of runway headings...they may be given on departure but only for a short time while they intercept the non-radar route.
It is imparative in the non-radar enviroment that aircraft are on specified routes and not headings, otherwise the whole system doesn't work.
-
Over here in the UK I live close to Doncaster Sheffield Airport (EGCN) and we have a limited radar coverage thanks to two RAF airfields however this goes offline at 6.30pm local time. Within the UK airspace are designated areas such as GOLES SUPEL TRENT. These are where radar controlled airspace starts. Each one as a different height at which it commences however as a general rule much over 5000 is the accepted height. For this reason we hear the ATC all a radar advisory service Hopfully come the back end of next year this will change when DSA gets its own adar in.
ROB
-
Some of you are asking awesome questions. Here at Timmins Flight service, it's not a tower, just a 24 hr FSS for Timmins and Moosonee during 7 am and 9pm or 1200z to 0200z. Yes headings are assigned via VOR outbound radials and even runway headings, just like radar covered areas. If you fly west, north or east, you're on radar at 8000 feet, and 10 000 feet if you're flying south. So, if there is congestion between one arriving and one departing same directin, normally there is an altitude restriction to not above 4000 until usually 20 + nm outbound. If 2 or more aircrafts are involved, then it's runway heading, OR CTR assigned heading in non-radar until visual reference by pilots, or until aircraft appears on radar.