Author Topic: No more feeds in France ?  (Read 21899 times)

Offline Emby330

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
No more feeds in France ?
« on: October 14, 2022, 10:56:20 AM »
Hello,

It's been a few days that all french feeds disappeared from LiveATC. Is there any bug or any restrictions requested by the french authorities?

Thank you.



Offline dave

  • Site Founder
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4608
    • LiveATC.net
Re: No more feeds in France ?
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2022, 11:28:07 AM »
We are involved in a dispute with the aviation authority in France. All feeds are offline until that dispute is resolved. We have sent a response to the authority and they seem to be refusing to respond. The basis for their claim is also questionable and doesn’t seem to have solid legal footing at all.


Offline nefethael

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: No more feeds in France ?
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2022, 11:48:04 AM »
Hope it will be resolved nicely without too much fight  :|

Offline Emby330

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: No more feeds in France ?
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2022, 12:05:25 PM »
Hello Dave,

Thank you for this information.

I hope the outcome to be favorable 🙏

Offline LFLP

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: No more feeds in France ?
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2022, 02:54:11 AM »
Hello Dave,

Any news regarding dispute with DGAC?

Offline Emby330

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: No more feeds in France ?
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2023, 03:49:35 PM »
Hello,

Still no news ?

Thanks

Offline calahan44

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: No more feeds in France ?
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2023, 05:41:59 PM »
We are involved in a dispute with the aviation authority in France. All feeds are offline until that dispute is resolved. We have sent a response to the authority and they seem to be refusing to respond. The basis for their claim is also questionable and doesn’t seem to have solid legal footing at all.

Hello Dave, do you have any news about the case ? Thank you.

Offline dave

  • Site Founder
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4608
    • LiveATC.net
Re: No more feeds in France ?
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2023, 04:27:45 PM »
There is no current news. Attached is a copy of the complaint.

It really has no basis in law as someone who transmits over open airwaves without encryption has no reasonable expectation of privacy. They are alleging that air traffic controllers can be personally identified by the fact that they merely issue instructions to pilots over the air (voluntarily, because they chose their job). It is a ludicrous assertion.

All the while, France passed this legislation today: France: New security law risks dystopian surveillance state

We have been in contact with at least two other French aviation groups that are quite surprised and angered at this development.





Offline Bensay

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Re: No more feeds in France ?
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2023, 07:12:23 AM »
There is no current news. Attached is a copy of the complaint.

It really has no basis in law as someone who transmits over open airwaves without encryption has no reasonable expectation of privacy. They are alleging that air traffic controllers can be personally identified by the fact that they merely issue instructions to pilots over the air (voluntarily, because they chose their job). It is a ludicrous assertion.

All the while, France passed this legislation today: France: New security law risks dystopian surveillance state

We have been in contact with at least two other French aviation groups that are quite surprised and angered at this development.

Dear dave,

Any update about the situation ?

According to the letter that i've read,

I suggest you to re-open the feed, and the is why, according to my opinion.

The DGAG told you that doing some processing operations, and they refer to the of Regulation (EU) 2016/679 of the Parliament,
European Parliament and of the Council of 27 April 2016, relating to the protection of natural persons with regard to processing of personal data and the free movement of these data (regulation
general data protection).

Especially the article n°6, by saying that :

"However, the processing that you carry out on the data does not appear lawful within the meaning of article 6 of the
aforementioned regulation."

This as false, according to the same code :

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32016R0679

Code: [Select]
1. Processing is only lawful if and to the extent that at least one of the following conditions is met:
a) the data subject has consented to the processing of his or her personal data for one or more purposes
specific;
(b) the processing is necessary for the performance of a contract to which the data subject is party or for the performance of
pre-contractual measures taken at the request of the latter;
c) the processing is necessary for compliance with a legal obligation to which the controller is subject;
(d) processing is necessary to safeguard the vital interests of the data subject or another person
physical;
e) the processing is necessary for the performance of a task of public interest or relating to the exercise of public authority
which is vested in the data controller;
f) the processing is necessary for the purposes of the legitimate interests pursued by the controller or by a third party,
unless the interests or fundamental rights and freedoms of the data subject prevail which require protection.
protection of personal data, in particular when the person concerned is a child.
Point (f) of the first paragraph does not apply to processing carried out by public authorities in the execution of their
missions.

The good point here is section e),
Indeed you're acting for the public interest, for freedom of information.

DGAC is a public agency which fall onto this regulation purpose :

Directive 2003/98/EC of the European Parliament and the Council of 17 November 2003 on the re-use of public sector information sets out the rules and practices for accessing public sector information resources for further exploitation. This directive has been reviewed in 2013 by Directive 2013/37/EU of the European Parliament and the Council of 26 June 2013 amending Directive 2003/98/EC on the re-use of public sector information.

So it will be nice to heard back from french feed, and wait until an "maybe" next DGAC letter, But it will be difficult for them to find other legal reasons.

Best wings,

Bensay



Offline uc3ew9gk6

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Re: No more feeds in France ?
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2023, 02:25:55 PM »
Hello there,

First off, although it must not make an appeal to authority, I am french and living in France.

Dave, I also suggest you to re-open the feed for the reasons raised by Bensay (which I verified as valid).

Also as Bensay implicitly said, the letter from the DGAC is a "kindly request" more than a firm request and legal threat. I believe that given the law invoked here, only the CNIL (commission nationale de l'informatique et des libertés) can legally threaten you to remove the feed, and only with an official "mise en demeure". I wouldn't say the DGAC overstepped the mark, but they surely over-reacted to something here (or maybe someone was just a bit overzealous, as the letter lack strong legal arguments).

Since the DGAC didn't reply to you to settle this matter, you are in your right to re-emit the feed. Only when the CNIL will send you a "mise en demeure" would you have to consider removing the feed (only if this is legally sound, of course (which usually is when the CNIL contacts you)).

Personally, I find LiveATC very useful for training with radio understanding and I'm actually quite surprised radioamateurs in France didn't react more to LiveATC stopping the feed for french airports. I also used feeds just out of curiosity and for fun. Other than that, it's true that it is of public interest (and sad that this is from an association [EDIT: after checking, actually the website is backed by a company, which make things even badder (from a "public interest" standpoint, of course I love what you're doing with LiveATC Dave :wink:)] in the USA and that we have nothing similar here in France).
« Last Edit: November 13, 2023, 02:28:31 PM by uc3ew9gk6 »

Offline calahan44

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: No more feeds in France ?
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2023, 06:00:55 PM »
Any updates on this specific issue with the DGAC ?

Offline hugoflying

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Re: No more feeds in France ?
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2024, 11:48:01 AM »
Hello,

What Bensay states is true!
And why penalize thousands of users when no complaints have been made by public authorities?
You have the right to exist, just like FlightRadar. It's for public interest and not for malicious purposes.
Please, put the French feeds back online.

Happy New Year,
Hugoflying







Offline Yves91

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Re: No more feeds in France ?
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2024, 08:00:03 AM »
Dave, yes, it would be great if you could re-open the feed!
Waiting for it...  :-D
Thanks in advance,

Yves