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Air Traffic Monitoring => Listener Forum => Topic started by: JohnN on November 14, 2013, 09:08:49 PM

Title: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 14, 2013, 09:08:49 PM
I finally got my feed set up (with a lot of help from Dave). It has a lot of frequencies on it, so there is always something going on.

Currently on the feed:

KBLM (Monmouth Executive Airport) CTAF (123.000)
KWRI (Mc Guire AFB) Tower (118.650)
N12 (Lakewood Airport) CTAF (122.800)
3N6 (Old Bridge Airport) CTAF 123.075)
McGuire Approach/Arrival/Clearance (124.150/120.250/120.950)
New York Center (DIXIE Sector Low) (118.975/307.800)
Sometimes you'll hear communications from Robbinsville (N87), South Jersey Rgnl (KVAY), Flying W (N14) and other local airports. Sometimes I have even picked up Pennridge (KCKZ), which is over 60 miles away.

I know the controllers are hard to understand sometimes, but it is the best I can do. I figure something is better than nothing, right?

Anyway, hope you enjoy listening, and thanks to Dave for all the help.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 18, 2013, 01:07:29 PM
Just wanted to update on the status of this feed...
Lakehurst Ground and Tower is now included, also.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/N12/3N6
Post by: RonR on November 18, 2013, 05:32:26 PM
Hi John and welcome!  The feed sounds fine to me...I can understand the ZNY controller just fine :)  Thanks for the feed!

Ron
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 19, 2013, 12:22:06 AM
It must have something to do with the atmosphere. Like you said the controllers came in fine today. I just wish I didn't live less than a mile away from an NWS transmitter, because it bleeds into my feed sometimes. The thing that really amazes me is that sometimes I can pick up Pennridge airport, which is I believe over 60 miles away.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: InterpreDemon on November 19, 2013, 01:34:30 AM
That NWS transmitter is on 162.45 mHz and you can knock that out with a cheap coax stub. What kind of feed line are you running?
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 19, 2013, 12:12:24 PM
I've got about a 80 ft run of RG-6 for the feed line. About 50 ft from antenna to amplifier, then maybe 10 ft from amplifier to ground block, then about 20 ft from ground block to scanner.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: InterpreDemon on November 19, 2013, 01:21:42 PM
OK, I assume you are using "F" type connectors with the RG-6 since few use BNC. If your amp has BNC connections you can use a 2F x 1M BNC tee, of course, otherwise you will need to obtain one of these: http://www.mpja.com/F-type-Connector-3-Female-Tee/productinfo/19550%20RC/

What you need to do is cut a 15" length of your RG-6, leave one end open (make sure it is a clean cut with a razor, seal it with some RTV or plastic cap like often used to protect the ends of rolls of 1/4" copper tubing) and the other with your F or BNC termination. Because the station is so close, it is best to put the stub at the amplifier input. If using F tee above you will need a short jumper between the amp and the tee since (to my knowledge) nobody makes a 2F x 1M "F" tee. Put the antenna down-lead and the stub on the other two legs of the tee, and then trim the stub so that the distance from the open end of the stub to the center of the tee is 14.5"

If you cannot find a tee, you could make the equivalent to above simply by stripping down one end each of your jumper, stub and down-lead, zip-tying them together shield to shield and twisting the three center conductors together, trimming the stub to 14.5" and taping it all up.

That stub should attenuate the 162.45 signal about 15-20 dB with little to no effect upon your 120mHz signals or your UHF at 307
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 19, 2013, 06:23:12 PM
I may have to give that a try one of these days. Thanks for the advice.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 19, 2013, 11:16:21 PM
I don't understand this... During the day, the pilots come in nice and clear on the NY Center frequencies. At night, I can only hear the controllers. No hint of any pilot communications. They seem to drop off around 11 pm. Any ideas?
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: RonR on November 20, 2013, 09:47:21 AM
You only hearing the controllers later at night is probably due to ZNY combining sectors onto one frequency when there is less traffic.  The controllers may still be simulcasting on 118.975 but the aircraft are on another frequency (probably 125.325).
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 20, 2013, 11:51:17 AM
Okay, that makes sense. Thanks.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: RonR on November 20, 2013, 11:54:42 AM
ur welcome  :-)
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 22, 2013, 12:30:33 PM
The feed will be down periodically as I transfer ZNY over to a new scanner. Should be back up soon.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: dave on November 22, 2013, 01:10:24 PM
We now have two separate feeds - one focused on KWRI/KNEL/ZNY (118.97/125.32) and one focused on the CTAFs (KBLM/N12/3N6 + others to be listed that are within range).

Thanks to John for his help hosting!

-Dave
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: dave on November 22, 2013, 01:11:15 PM
We also have a coaxial stub filter in there now so the NOAA interference and desensitization should be mostly gone, and it seems to be.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 22, 2013, 01:25:09 PM
I'm glad to help. It sounds like the controllers are coming in much clearer, maybe thanks to the stub filter.
Unfortunately, BLM was just sold to someone who seems to be a pompous jerk, and wants to change it into a Teterboro-type airport. No more skydiving, no more banner planes. He wants to cater to "$50 million airplanes, not $50,000 airplanes." He says "It's hard to convince owners of $30 million jets to land at an airport when you need to worry about people falling from the sky." Sorry, just had to complain about that. Here's an article, if anyone is interested. http://wall.patch.com/groups/business-news/p/end-of-an-era-monmouth-executive-airport-sold
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: InterpreDemon on November 22, 2013, 05:01:17 PM
You're welcome  8-)

BTW, Can you get 133.5 ground side from there?
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: RonR on November 22, 2013, 06:15:46 PM
Nice setup John!  I'm actually a little surprised that you can get the ground side of both 118.975 and 125.325.  If I'm not mistaken, the transmitter sites for these two are at different locations.  But I guess the two sites are close enough together so you can hear both.  Either way, makes for great listening!

Ron
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 22, 2013, 06:38:54 PM
The ground side was difficult to get, but after adding the amp with FM filter, and switching over to the Pro-2006, I was finally able to get them clear enough to be understandable. Is there some way to find where the transmitters are located? From what I understand, one is in Colts Neck, which is maybe 25 miles at most from where I live.
I missed the question about 133.5, but I'll see what I get. What is that frequency for?
Anyway, I'll put 133.5 on for a bit and see what I get.

EDIT: Sounds like I'm getting ground and the aircraft. I'll see if Dave wants to add it to the list. Until I hear back, I'll leave 133.5 in the scan.
Is there a reason you wanted me to try 133.5? I notice there are already 2 feeds from the NY area with that freq. Are they missing the ground side or something?
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: InterpreDemon on November 22, 2013, 08:00:15 PM
We've been trying to get the ground side of that for over a year, it comes out of Barnegat. That is the Center frequency the arriving oceanic flights from the south/southeast check in on when they switch from HF (shortwave) to VHF, so now we would have complete coverage of Caribbean flights both departing and arriving on HF and VHF.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 22, 2013, 08:12:12 PM
Now that you mention it, I think I remember Dave asking if I could get that back when I had my portable scanner set up. With the portable scanner, I couldn't get ground. It sounds like now that I have the Pro-2006 and amplifier, ground is coming in.
Title: Re: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: RonR on November 22, 2013, 09:44:44 PM
Hey John, yes that frequency is on other feeds. I have it on one of mine but you can't hear the ground side at all. Another guy has it on his feed but the ground side just barely breaks squelch. But your reception of 133.5 seems to be the best thus far. Many of the flights you hear on this frequency are departing/arriving JFK. These flights generally start their decent on 133.5 and get handed off to ZNY 128.3 on their way down. It's a great frequency!

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: RonR on November 22, 2013, 09:47:35 PM
I'm listening to your feed now...I can hear the beeps from your pro 2006. I know that sound well...i have a 2006 too. You must be playing around with the radio.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: InterpreDemon on November 22, 2013, 10:25:14 PM
When they first check in 50 miles south of RESQU, ROLLE, SQUAD, ZIBUT, etc., they are around 250-280 miles out from Lakewood.
Title: Re: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 22, 2013, 10:34:27 PM
I'm listening to your feed now...I can hear the beeps from your pro 2006. I know that sound well...i have a 2006 too. You must be playing around with the radio.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk
You caught me... I've been trying to fine tune the squelch. As soon as it stops on a station, I hit the scan button and turn the knob just a tiny bit. I've noticed there is a very fine line between static and the controllers dropping out.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: InterpreDemon on November 23, 2013, 12:44:17 AM
You are getting 133.5 very nicely, getting all the hand-offs to ARINC 129.9 on the outbound side, have not yet heard any arrivals at check-in (which would be maximum range) yet, but there aren't any inbound right now anyway. All those guys going to RESQU and SQUAD that you hear handed off to 129.9 are outbound and leaving radar coverage. To hear them after that you go here: http://www.liveatc.net/play/kjfk_arinc.pls and after that you would listen to them on HF here: http://www.liveatc.net/play/hf_car_ct.pls  On the inbound they transition directly from HF to 133.5

If it is possible to double up on the stereo sound disks (for three or four total feeds) I'll give you a radio for a dedicated 133.5 feed, but I'm not sure with that antenna and based upon what I have heard so far that you've got quite enough signal on the weak ground stations to sacrifice another 3 dB signal loss with a three or four way splitter. Probably need an antenna upgrade or a second one in the form of a 2 or 3 element beam aimed SE. 133.5 is definitely worth the dedicated feed.

If I get Ron on 129.4 (still looking for a good time slot for that, Ron) and you on 133.5 I think I will finally be able to die a satisfied man.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JetScan1 on November 23, 2013, 02:24:12 AM
Quote
133.5 is definitely worth the dedicated feed.

I second that, I'll donate funds to help out with another radio. I believe they also cross-couple 133.500 with 125.925 at certain times, so you would be able to hear all the transmissions on 125.925 as well when they have them linked up. Not sure how often they do that ? But we should be able to find out now. Thanks for providing the feed !

For your reference I attached a chart below that shows the high altitude sectors in this area.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JetScan1 on November 23, 2013, 09:55:31 AM
Just listening this morning around 09:30-10:00 EST and I see the radio is getting hung up on the squelch for long periods of time. The frequency it's getting stuck on must be one of the less busy ones because I have not heard anything on it when it's stopped. I'm wondering if it would make more sense to just keep the 3 ZNY frequencies on this radio and switch all the other stuff over to the other radio ?
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: ferraraj on November 23, 2013, 10:26:42 AM
Great to have 133.5 covered in NJ guys... One freq we are missing in the mix is 128.3. It's also out of Barnegat...it's the low level sector ZNY sector that's the handoff inbound and outbound for Carib flights to and from JFK & EWR between N90 and 133.5. 133.5 is also being currently heard on the Hyannis MA feed since ZNY simulcasts 99% of the time 133.5 and 125.92. 125.92 xmits out of cape cod. They are sep sectors but are rarely split. So...we also have 133.5 covered on the ground side there. All that said, I'm glad we have another on the ground side, but would like to see 128.3 covered as well...We aren't catching the ground side of that anywhere...this feed is our only hope. You should be able to get it...if you are getting 133.5.

My suggestion...maybe find another radio...put 133.5 & 128.3 on one and 125.32. &118.97 on the other. All of these freqs get vey busy esp during bad wx and would be a lot on one scan...tough to follow. My vote would be to get 128.3 in there somewhere...

Thoughts?
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: RonR on November 23, 2013, 11:04:36 AM
I have to agree with JetScan, I'm listening right now and your feed has been stuck on a frequency for the past 15 minutes; nothing but background noise.

I have heard 133.5 simulcasting on 125.925 many times in the past on one of the two feeds that have it, just not sure which one now.  After listening a little bit on the two feeds that have 125.925, it looks like you can just hear the aircraft on the KHYA Twr/Cape App/ZBW/ZNY feed and nothing at all on 125.925 on the ZBW/ZNY Atlantic Sectors + Military feed.

If I get Ron on 129.4 (still looking for a good time slot for that, Ron)

No rush ID, whenever it's good for you :-)
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: RonR on November 23, 2013, 11:29:07 AM
Hey Jim,

How's it going?

I never even thought about 128.3...but my information tells me that 128.3 comes out of Ship Bottom...do you know for sure it comes out of Barnegat?  And now that I think about it, a few times when the conditions were right I could hear the ground side of 133.5 and 128.3 from my location here on Long Island.  So that could lead you to believe that they both DO come out of the same location...
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 23, 2013, 12:23:58 PM
I'll have to keep an eye on the scanner, and see if I can adjust the squelch a little better. I'll put 128.3 on manual for a bit and see what I pick up. Right now I have it set to hold on 128.3. I wouldn't mind adding another scanner, but the Pi only has 2 usb ports for iMics. The other laptop I was previously running the feed from has 2 free USB ports and a Mic input. I wonder if there is some way I could make that work?

I've been listening, and it sounds like I'm not picking up the ground side. The only thing I could think of to improve my reception is to replace my RG-6 with LMR-400, but I don't think it would improve my reception enough to be worth the $80 upgrade. Any thoughts? It's currently about an 80 ft run of RG-6.
I'm definitely not picking up the ground, so for now I'll lock it out and go back to the scan.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JetScan1 on November 23, 2013, 12:27:39 PM
Quote
I never even thought about 128.3...but my information tells me that 128.3 comes out of Ship Bottom...do you know for sure it comes out of Barnegat?

According to the coordinates provided by the FAA the Ship Bottem and Barngate transmitters are only located around 3 miles apart. Confirmed using Google Earth (actually 3.3 miles apart).

The RadioReference database also show ZNY 126.025 located at Barngate. I wonder if you can hear the controller on 126.025 ?

126.025 seems to be always cross-coupled with 133.525. If you could get the controller on 126.025 a 133.500-126.025 combo feed would be sweet as it would give you New York Center VHF Oceanic coverage pretty well along the whole eastern seaboard all the way down to Florida/Jacksonville Center. And would complement the adjacent HF feeds nicely.

Any chance as a short test you could add 126.025 into the mix and see if you can get that one ?

 
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 23, 2013, 12:32:41 PM
Ok, so no ground side on 28.3, I'll test 26.025 now. Oh, and I locked out the offending frequency it was getting hung up on for now. It was 243.000, an Emergency/Guard freq. I'll see if I can get it to work later. Anyway, I'll put on 26.025 for a bit and see what comes in.
Ok, I have 26.025 on and haven't heard anything yet.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JetScan1 on November 23, 2013, 12:40:01 PM
Quote
Ok, I have 26.025 on and haven't heard anything yet.

Thanks, I'm listening now as well. Is that the only freq on there now ? I thought I heard something a minute ago but couldn't quite make it out ? I see JetBlue 1095 heading to LEXAD so should hear them shortly on the handoff.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 23, 2013, 12:43:04 PM
Yeah, right now it's held of 26.025. I also heard something, but I really couldn't tell what it was.
Actually, I have both of my feeds (BLM and ZNY) open, so I don't know where that came from. Just noticed I muted the BLM feed, so it had to come from the ZNY feed.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JetScan1 on November 23, 2013, 12:48:21 PM
Ok I just heard that bizjet check on approaching LEXAD and no controller, so I guess you can't get the controllers on 126.025, thanks for checking though. Where are you located ? Your aircraft reception range is excellent. On the frequencies you can hear the ZNY controllers are you also getting them on UHF as well or is it just the VHF freqs you can hear them on ?
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 23, 2013, 12:55:05 PM
I'm right on the Lakewood/Howell border. I have both VHF and UHF Frequencies programmed into the scanner, but I haven't been paying attention to what I'm hearing them on.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: RonR on November 23, 2013, 01:43:58 PM
126.02 is also listed as coming out of Manteo NC...I have a feeling that's the more likely site where it's transmitting from.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 23, 2013, 02:05:20 PM
I think NC might be just a little too far, which would explain why the controllers weren't coming in. Let me try 28.30 again, and see if I get the ground side this time.
I've got it holding on 28.3 for a little bit. Where is this transmitter supposed to be located?
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: RonR on November 23, 2013, 02:17:09 PM
128.3 is supposedly coming out of Ship Bottom, south of Toms River at the intersection of Barnegat Rd and Warren Grove Rd
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: alphazulu on November 23, 2013, 02:18:03 PM
Hello John
I believe 128.300 is a Low sector out of Ship Bottom
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: RonR on November 23, 2013, 02:21:34 PM
Doesn't sound like you're getting the ground side of 128.3  :-(  oh well...
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JetScan1 on November 23, 2013, 02:30:45 PM
Quote
126.02 is also listed as coming out of Manteo NC...I have a feeling that's the more likely site where it's transmitting from.

Another database, The North American Enroute Aviation Guide, lists a 126.025 transmitter located at Atlantic City as well. I'm guessing ZNY might use the northern transmitter as a secondary or backup as required ? Can anyone near Atlantic City confirm 126.025 in that location ?

Washington Center on 121.025 is also showing transmitting from Ship Bottom. I wonder if you can get that one ?
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 23, 2013, 02:33:55 PM
I'll try 21.02 and see what I get. Doesn't sound like I'm getting ground from 21.02. Ship Bottom must be just a little too far.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JetScan1 on November 23, 2013, 02:39:40 PM
Quote
I'll try 21.02 and see what I get. Doesn't sound like I'm getting ground from 21.02. Ship Bottom must be just a little too far.

What about with the squelch right off ? I wonder if you get a weak sidetone from it ?
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 23, 2013, 02:47:04 PM
I've got the squelch as low as it will go right now. Aircraft are coming in fine, just no hint of the ground side. Okay, since I wasn't getting ground, I've locked out 21.02 and returned to the normal scan.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JetScan1 on November 23, 2013, 02:54:23 PM
Quote
I've got the squelch as low as it will go right now. Aircraft are coming in fine, just no hint of the ground side.

Yeah I didn't hear anything from the ground side either. Thanks for checking. Interesting that you can get the controllers from Barngate on 133.500 that's maybe a few miles farther from your location. Although I'm guessing they are using a more powerful transmitter to get out long range over the ocean ?
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 23, 2013, 04:15:02 PM
Someone suggested I build a tower to FAA standards so I could pick up the ground side. I have plenty of time to build it, but I'm just not sure about the money side of things. I wonder how much something like that would cost?
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 23, 2013, 05:32:23 PM
So the FAA tower will probably never happen (unless I find some free money laying on the ground) but on a serious note, does anyone have any ideas on how I might be able to improve my reception? You can see pictures of my current setup over in the Pictures forum.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: InterpreDemon on November 23, 2013, 06:04:54 PM
John, forget the LMR, will not get you anything at these frequencies, especially if you are running quad shield RG-6. The difference in loss between the two with your length run is only 1.5dB or less, which is barely the difference between breaking squelch and not. The first thing you need to do is decide how important the UHF is to you... if not that important, you have better options, firstly being the antenna. What we need to do is plot the distance and azimuth of all the stations you need to pick up, the frequencies and the relative strength observed of each station, strongest being a "10" and working down, in fact just dividing into four groups, "full quieting", "solid copy", "noisy" and "Can hear something if I open the squelch" is enough for the survey. Anything "not at all" with your current setup is not likely to ever be brought to "solid copy" without an extraordinary deployment of money and effort. You plot that map, then we determine the ideal pattern that would "normalize" the signals all around, then design the system needed to achieve the objective.

For example, if you have solid copy of the local CTAF's including planes on the ground, and the gain to the ocean needs to be bumped up a couple dB to make the ground more solid, the solution could be as simple as a ground plane antenna side-mounted on the mast at the proper azimuth and spacing. On the other end would be a superior omni antenna like a j-pole or sleeve dipole for the CTAF's with a two element beam aimed east for the oceanic stuff, since most of the traffic is there anyway. More exotic solutions can combine the two into one, such as a beam (or 2-el phased array) with an additional offset parasitic element to distort the pattern and give you two gain lobes, perhaps one due west with 6dB gain for some local airport and another to the southeast with 8dB gain for some other airport or region. Anything can be modeled and anything can be built for little money, so we just have to determine the requirements and the rest is pretty easy.

You've already got your antenna up 25-30 feet I suspect,unless you at least double the elevation you will be dismayed, and at double the elevation you will not be impressed, either. Unless trees are an issue there really is no difference until you go from 30 to about 100 feet and/or above surrounding trees,in terms of your effective real-world radio horizon, and even there one or more directional arrays are easier and cheaper. It's not that I am against maximum elevation, it's just when you are already at around 30 feet or so (verses ten) you really need to triple to get a worthwhile return, so the expense of a typical 50 to 60 foot tower is simply not worth it (especially to a spouse) unless you plan to hang lots of other stuff up there. You also significantly increase, like by as much as ten-fold, the likelihood of a direct hit since you now are competing with utility wires and poles for a dose of the Wrath of God.

Another upgrade would be using a better preamp, like those from Advanced Receiver Research, designed specifically for the band (which is why you have to decide about UHF), mounted right at the antenna and powered via the coax. That will give you 20dB to offset the -3dB for the coax run and -6dB for a 4-way splitter, giving you around 10dB net overall gain, which is the most you should consider when you are using consumer grade equipment (scanners). That preamp may even be selective enough to eliminate the need for that stub.

If it were me, the first thing I would do (after the survey) is go with the preamp, because that would be a keeper, basically essential given the length of your down-lead, and an integral component to any eventual solution.

Anyway, that's my take on it, and that's all for now.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 23, 2013, 06:30:45 PM
It was Dave's idea to put the UHF frequencies in, so I'll ask him if he wants me to keep them. If not, I'll go from there. I got my antenna just high enough to clear the roofline, so I'm not planning on raising it any higher (unless I found a 100' tower really cheap). Any upgrades are probably going to have to wait a while, because I already have too much money into this, between the new scanner and antenna.

I think the first thing I'd like to do is split ZNY onto it's own feed, separate of KWRI/KNEL. I could get a 3rd scanner cheap on ebay, but I don't have anything to connect it to. I guess I could have 2 feeds going through the Pi, and the 3rd feed through my laptop, which is always on. If I do that, I could probably set up 4 scanners. I think my laptop has 2 free USB ports. I think my ideal setup would be:

Scanner 1          Scanner 2               Scanner 3
Local CTAF's       KWRI/KNEL/           ZNY Frequencies
                        McGuire Approach
                        McGuire Departure
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: InterpreDemon on November 23, 2013, 06:39:30 PM
Dave, can he split the stereo devices on that PI and run four?
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JetScan1 on November 23, 2013, 07:05:48 PM
Your aircraft reception range is approaching theoretical maximum line of site distances now. From what I've heard so far it is one of the best feeds for aircraft reception on LiveATC. Given your distance from the ground stations you are covering I'd be surprised if there is really anything you can do that would noticeable improve your controller reception, short of moving closer to the transmitters or running the feed tethered to a hot air balloon at 500 feet.

My only comment would be that you are scanning too many frequencies making it difficult to follow sometimes, I'd start by removing ZNY 125.325 as it's already covered well on other feeds. Splitting the feeds as you suggested would be a good idea, I'd be happy to donate some funds to cover an extra scanner if you can accomodate it.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: dave on November 23, 2013, 08:04:10 PM
Dave, can he split the stereo devices on that PI and run four?

We're not splitting that setup.  Stereo feeds are used sparingly - they just confuse listeners.

I'm kind of busy until Monday…will comment more then.  Great comments but nothing is changing on this setup until I figure out some other requirements.  It isn't all about Center coverage.  :-)

We have other ways to get Center coverage…it doesn't all have to come from John's site.  It just might involve some waiting.  :-)
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: InterpreDemon on November 23, 2013, 08:30:42 PM
Waiting? Like waiting to get something going in ATL? THAT kind of waiting? OMG!  :-)

I was talking about splitting the stereo into two mono, not running dizzy, stereo that only bipolar folks can listen to.

Been listening for a bit and I'm not sure the 33.5 coverage is deep enough anyway, hearing the outbound hand-offs to ARINC but not the inbound check-ins coming over from HF, which I CAN get from LI
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 23, 2013, 08:43:59 PM
Okay, so for now I'll go back to the original frequencies. I'll remove 33.5 and 25.32 until we can figure something out.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to search ebay for some hot air balloons. Oh, and I have to check the real estate ads for homes closer to the transmitters.

Okay, we're back to the original frequencies.
If I can get a 3rd scanner cheap, separating KWRI/KNEL and ZNY shouldn't be a problem. I'll just hook one scanner up to my laptop, and leave the others on the Pi.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 23, 2013, 09:03:18 PM
Your aircraft reception range is approaching theoretical maximum line of site distances now. From what I've heard so far it is one of the best feeds for aircraft reception on LiveATC.
I know my aircraft-side reception is good, because sometimes I can hear when they are skydiving in Pennridge airport, which is over 60 miles from me.Not to mention I'm picking up Robbinsville loud and clear, which is about 20 miles away.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: ferraraj on November 24, 2013, 01:03:50 AM
Wow...I was gone all day...didn't intend to start such a hot topic. I'll add my 2 cents worth...

128.3 does xmit from a different site than 133.5. (Ship bottom) When on the GS Pkwy it's noticeable...a few miles difference makes all the difference in reception...only a few places can hear both ground sides well. My comments about 133.5 being heard from HYA (via 125.92) as well, seems that it's intermittent there for various reasons...so this 133.5 feed might be our best shot at a consistent ZNY Atlantic sector coverage. Often aircraft checking in over BERGH, JOBOC, SLATN, etc cannot be heard....but as they get closer, they are picked up fine. This is normal listening for this sector. Too bad about 128.3, but thanks for trying.

As far as 125.32 & 118.97...  Right now this is the only feed catching the ground-side of both of these so with 133.5 there are three great and in my opinion very important and very busy ZNY sectors we are hearing. We need to leave it up to the feed purveyor and Dave to decide how to best handle it... I'm sure  he sees the big picture in so far as to what's coming on line soon, etc...

As far as 126.02 and 133.52 ZNY off-shore sectors...they (ground) are only xmitting from NC area...I heard them last time I was down there-outer banks & ILM area. They have listed NJ locations but I think only for back-up. NEVER heard them from nj shore or Atlantic city. 121.02 is a ZDC low sector...never heard ground side from shore area either.

Hope this helps...
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 24, 2013, 01:38:55 AM
I'll leave the final decision to Dave, because like you said, he knows if there is someone else coming online soon, and after all, it is his website. I don't mind adding more frequencies, but the ZNY/KWRI/KNEL feed is already crowded. I really would like to get a 3rd scanner to separate ZNY and NEL/WRI. I like hearing the military comms at WRI/NEL, but they tend to get lost because of how busy the ZNY part of it is.

Now I'm listening, and I'm not hearing the ground side on one of the ZNY freq.'s. I'll have to check squelch and see if this wind broke my antenna or something. Been pretty gusty, so hopefully everything holds up.
Until tomorrow (or rather, today),
John
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 24, 2013, 01:54:22 PM
Sounds like ground side is coming in fine again, so it must have just been a bit of bad reception. I got a question for you HF guys... What kind of setup do you run to pick up the HF? Are there special scanners or antennas involved? For example, would I be able to pick them up with my current setup?
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: InterpreDemon on November 24, 2013, 03:24:27 PM
John, you need a shortwave receiver with sideband capability, as well as an appropriate antenna. Before even attempting I would first drive around your neighborhood with your car radio tuned to a weak AM station high on the dial (1300-1600) and see what kind of powerline, computer and TV noise might be in the area. If you are relatively rural (low noise level), you might be able to get away with an amplified vertical antenna like Dave uses up in NH, but the cheapest thing, property and available trees permitting, is to string up a simple horizontal dipole wire antenna, which can be more directional and picks up less man-made noise. For two of my three HF feeds I use old Radio Shack DX-400 portable receivers acquired at an average price of around $40, which can be modified to give pretty good performance, however with those consumer rigs you MUST have a narrow filter when using an external antenna because they will bleed all over the place at night when the HAMS and foreign broadcast start to pound the airwaves. Fortunately such filters are very cheap to make, needing nothing more than a couple inches of 2" PVC pipe, a few feet of rg-58 coax and a soldering iron. The Radio Shack solution is the best performance for the money solution I have found yet for HF. They are cheap, though they are old (from the 80's) and have common problems you need to look out for when buying, they are pretty stable if kept in a fairly temperature controlled environment, can give decent reception despite the use of a BFO instead of a product detector for sideband demodulation and are digital entry, which makes frequency selection easy.

There are also some USB dongle SDR (Software Defined Radio) receivers that work with a computer, which allows scheduled frequency hopping (higher bands are used during the day, lower at night) but they also suffer from poor selectivity and would require a filter or series of switched band filters. A step above that (as far as computer control) are pricier SDR's , often used by HAMs, which have much more selective RF circuitry and are essentially like the complete RF section of a radio without the audio back end or front panel controls, as well as many general coverage receivers, mostly made in Japan under well known names such as Drake, that are complete stand-alone receivers that may also have computer interface capability.

Finally there is used commercial gear, some legendary with names like Harris, Racal, Rockwell Collins, etc. from modern solid state ("sand state") back to "hollow state" tube rigs from the fifties and sixties that give extremely superior performance. I personally like the old, heavy stuff, but you need to be able to maintain it. My 6577/5550 feed uses a pair of somewhat legendary R-390 radios working together with a rarely seen CV-157 sideband converter, all configured (using only a hundred tubes) to merge and demodulate two different frequencies at once. It's different from simply merging two audio streams, the stronger signal from either receiver will suppress the signal or noise from the other. The feed is primarily on those two frequencies, but depending upon the band conditions ARINC may also go up to 8846 or 11396 during the day and down to 3455 or even 2887 at night, so if I am around and monitoring the bands in use I will re-tune the radio pair to track the primary and secondary frequencies in use at the time. Due to the heat generated in the equipment rack they serve double-duty heating the shack from fall to spring, but I do not run those rigs 24/7 for the feed in the summer when I would have to air-condition them and am often away and unable to babysit them anyway, so I switch to a pair of DX-400 rigs modified to work together in diversity reception the same way the boat-anchor rigs do.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 24, 2013, 03:37:10 PM
Thanks for all that info. I had a feeling special equipment was needed. I'm not really planning on trying to get anything HF, I was just curious. Maybe someday I'll give it a try. Sounds like there's a lot more involved than picking up the VHF frequencies.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: InterpreDemon on November 24, 2013, 04:31:23 PM
I don't know that it's harder, just different. In fact except for localized sources of interference that are generally not a problem with VHF, HF is in some ways easier since, with the same equipment you in NJ, me in CT and Dave in NH would be able to receive the same signals at about the same strength most of the time, whereas with VHF you can pick up the ground side of 133.5 where he and I never will, and there are other complex forms of interference or challenges to reception that often require specialized test equipment and significant expertise or experience with two-way radio. Anyway, there are some coverage gaps in HF for the Caribbean and North Atlantic routes, for example 3016, 5520 and 8906, so first you (or others) get your hands on a portable SW receiver or spend more time listening to the HF feeds and see if you catch the bug. Except for my two decades as an active pilot, I almost never listened to VHF unless in the cockpit, but have listened to aeronautical HF since I was about ten years old.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 24, 2013, 05:14:32 PM
Maybe someday I'll give it a try. I'd try now, but you know how money always keeps you from doing anything fun. First thing I gotta do is split up ZNY and WRI/NEL.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: ferraraj on November 24, 2013, 07:38:11 PM
I hope we will decide to add 133.5 back onto the ZNY part of the WRI scan before the storm moves in Tuesday! Should be some very interesting listening Tues & Wed...even if its all busy!
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 24, 2013, 07:58:32 PM
I do have an idea of how to include 33.5 in preparation for the storm, but it would only be a temporary solution. I could see how it comes in on the dedicated CTAF scanner, and if I get the ground side, leave it on there from Tues-Wed (in addition to the CTAF's). The local airports aren't too busy this time of year, so I wouldn't be missing much. The only problem may be that I think the CTAF scanner has a lower sensitivity, so I might not be able to pick up ground. Well, Dave said he'd be back tomorrow, so I'll see if he has any suggestions. The final decision of course is up to him.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: ferraraj on November 24, 2013, 09:33:26 PM
I only say that cuz you had it in your scanner before when you were scanning 118.97, 125.32 & 133.5 together a day or so ago... All received ground-side fine. Whatever you (and Dave) can do is appreciated...
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: InterpreDemon on November 24, 2013, 09:42:59 PM
That's not a bad idea. CTAF's are probably less busy, especially if you can't pick up those little planes when they are on the ground. Just use the delay on 133.5 and not the others, to try to hold both sides (assuming you can pick up both sides with that scanner). It would be nice to monitor that freq from your location for a while, because as I said I am not sure you are picking up the arrivals when they first check in, which is at maximum range and may even be over your radio horizon. Even the Long Island south shore ARINC 129.9 feed can miss a plane here and there out at ZIBUT or OKONU, especially if they are at lower altitude, and that's an excellent, purpose designed antenna and amplified feed line system at almost sixty feet and in the clear. The check-ins are usually fifty miles even further south of of those waypoints, which theoretically you should be able to get if you had the equivalent performance because you are almost fifty miles closer to most of them. You may literally only get them at low tide... I'm not kidding. We'll see.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 24, 2013, 09:51:54 PM
I'll put 33.5 on the CTAF scanner for a little bit right now and see what I get.
Now to find the manual so I can figure out how to program that scanner again...
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 24, 2013, 10:01:13 PM
Okay, holding 33.5 on the BLM feed for a little while. On a side note, the ground side of ZNY is coming in great tonight. Must be good atmospheric conditions.

I think it sounds like ground is coming in. I have no problem leaving 33.5 on during the storm, but I'll wait to see if Dave has any objections or other suggestions. I'll leave it in the scan with the delay until I hear back from Dave.
Okay, I don't see a delay button, so I guess there is no delay feature. Maybe it's on by default.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: ferraraj on November 24, 2013, 11:13:51 PM
Good news...Great Thanks!
Title: Re:
Post by: RonR on November 24, 2013, 11:33:01 PM
It's good to hear that you added 133.5 again. That's always a good frequency to listen to. The radio shack has a delay button, the bearcat does not. A delay is automatically included in the bearcat, you can't turn it off (unfortunately). Thanks John!

Sent from my Galaxy S4 using tapatalk
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 24, 2013, 11:44:09 PM
Yeah, I think I could live with this setup until I get myself a dedicated NEL/WRI scanner. As an aside, I see you have a Galaxy S4. I just ordered one Friday, and it should come tomorrow. Looking forward to replacing my iPhone.
Wow, I can't believe this is up to 73 posts. I really wasn't expecting my feed(s) to become so popular.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: InterpreDemon on November 25, 2013, 03:59:39 AM
No, it's 74
Title: Re:
Post by: RonR on November 25, 2013, 06:12:49 AM
75 now...Yes, so far I love my galaxy 4. My daughter has the iPhone 5 and I honestly don't see what the fuss is all about. The iPhone is nothing special to me.

Sent from my Galaxy S4 using tapatalk
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: ferraraj on November 25, 2013, 07:49:46 PM
Hey John...133.5 on the BLM feed is not picking up any ground side...can you try it on the other (WRI) radio to see if its any better?
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 25, 2013, 08:15:42 PM
Really? It was working fine before. I'll give it on shot back over on the WRI scanner again. I've been too busy playing with my Galaxy S4 to pay attention to my feeds. This phone can do so much, but I probably won't use even ½ of its features.

All right, I've got 33.5 on the Pro-2006, and I think I heard the ground. I don't have any problem leaving it in the scan during the storm, if no one has any objections. After Thursday, I'd go back to the original frequencies. Does anyone have any objections to this temporary setup?
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: ferraraj on November 25, 2013, 09:03:36 PM
It was picking up ground side overnight..but by this afternoon there was nothing... Just an FYI. Thanks for accommodating my request...
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: dave on November 25, 2013, 09:05:38 PM
It was picking up ground side overnight..but by this afternoon there was nothing... Just an FYI. Thanks for accommodating my request...

Or was it picking up a different ground transmitter because they were on the mid and combined up?
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 26, 2013, 12:09:56 PM
Has anyone else noticed that automated weather advisory that comes in on the BLM feed once in a while? I might have to do some research on that, and see if I can figure out where it is coming from. I'll have to see if I can do something about it.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: InterpreDemon on November 26, 2013, 01:14:04 PM
Does it only happen at night, or on a regular schedule of some sort?
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 26, 2013, 01:23:55 PM
It's not only at night, because I've been hearing it happen today. I haven't been paying attention to how often it happens. I do think this is going to be difficult to solve, because I haven't been able to track down what frequency it happens on. When I hear it on the feed, I look at the scanner to see what it stopped on. Problem is, the scanner says it's scanning. I don't know if that has something to do with a delay in the feed or something. I'll keep trying to track this down. I'll let you know what I find.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: InterpreDemon on November 26, 2013, 02:08:07 PM
Look at both scanners, make sure they do not both lock up when it is happening, because it could be an image. Too complicated to explain.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: RonR on November 26, 2013, 06:03:45 PM
John, if you're listening to your feed through the liveatc site (that's what I do with my feeds all the time), then there is a short delay between reception of the signal on your scanner and hearting it online.  By the time you briefly hear that automated weather service online, the scanner already started scanning again.  At least that's why I belive you're not seeing it on your scanner.

And yes, I have heard it too, but I hadn't heard it since you put in the stub filter so I thought the filter took care of that.  I guess it didn't  :-)
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 26, 2013, 06:33:05 PM
From what I can remember, the AWOS broadcast usually lasts about 5-10 seconds. So between the delay, and my slow reaction time, this is going to be difficult to track down. I guess I could start by listening and seeing if this happens on a regular interval. Or I can sit and stare at the scanner constantly until this happens again. I don't think it's the NWS station, so it might be one of the airport's AWOS. I'll have to get my portable scanner and see if I can match up the voice and current conditions. My guess is it is coming either from BLM or N12.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: dave on November 26, 2013, 06:34:18 PM
I have heard it a couple of times but couldn't identify the airport - it isn't there for long.  I wouldn't waste too much time chasing it.  It was really infrequent.  Has that changed?
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 26, 2013, 06:39:41 PM
I wouldn't say that it is a problem. Just one of those things that would be nice to track down if I can. The AWOS for BLM is 121.625, and N12 doesn't have an AWOS. Is it possible for 121.625 to "bleed" onto one of the frequencies I'm scanning?
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: dave on November 26, 2013, 06:42:05 PM
I wouldn't say that it is a problem. Just one of those things that would be nice to track down if I can. The AWOS for BLM is 121.625, and N12 doesn't have an AWOS. Is it possible for 121.625 to "bleed" onto one of the frequencies I'm scanning?

It's very possible, yes.  Could be some intermodulation causing it.  *That* might be hard to get rid of - but first the offending transmitters need to be identified - the ones causing the product to appear in the first place.  Nothing a little time, math, patience, and a spectrum analyzer can't solve.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 26, 2013, 06:45:38 PM
Well, I have time, and some math abilities. The patience and spectrum analyzer could be a problem. So I think I'm just going to assume it's 121.625 and leave everything alone.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: dave on November 26, 2013, 06:58:22 PM
Well, I have time, and some math abilities. The patience and spectrum analyzer could be a problem. So I think I'm just going to assume it's 121.625 and leave everything alone.

The first step is to identify exactly what AWOS it is.  Then…read up on intermodulation products:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodulation

Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 30, 2013, 02:15:27 PM
Just caught the frequency the AWOS comes through on. It was 122.8, which is Lakewood's CTAF. According to AirNav, the nearest AWOS are BLM (121.625) and MJX (119.875), which is 17 nm from BLM.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: ferraraj on December 02, 2013, 08:31:57 PM
I'm having a hard time figuring out...is 133.5 off the WRI scan now? 118.97 sure comes in nice :-)! This is the only feed that can hear 133.5, did you and Dave decide if it could be added permanently?...
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on December 02, 2013, 10:16:04 PM
I've been trying to post from my phone, but I guess it's not working. I've been meaning to lock out 33.5, but I haven't gotten around to it. So yes, as of now, 33.5 is on the feed. I'm probably going to lock it out soon to free up the feed, until I get a 3rd scanner.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on December 04, 2013, 07:35:04 PM
Just found another Pro-2006 on ebay. No bids, currently at $9.99 and $20 shipping. I put a $10 bid, but I doubt I'll get it. If I were to get the 3rd scanner, my setup would be:

Pro-2006 #1           Pro-2006 #2  Bearcat 350A
KWRI                       118.975         KBLM
KNEL                        125.325         N12
McGuire Approach    133.500        3N6
McGuire Departure

Two of them would be hooked up to the Pi, on to my laptop. Hopefully no one else bids on the scanner, because I'm not really willing to go over $30 total right now.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on December 04, 2013, 10:15:46 PM
Well, I've been outbid. I knew it would happen. Does anyone have any recommendations of other scanners to look out for, besides the Pro 2006?
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: InterpreDemon on December 05, 2013, 02:31:47 PM
Sure, the RS Pro 2050, the BC 780, 785 or plain 350

The bigger issue is that you will be knocking the signal down by roughly a half to the existing radios (or one of them) when you add this third radio. Best thing to do is determine which of the existing radios has better coverage (probably the CTAF) and split that line in two. The marginal ground stations you are picking up now will probably be gone after another 3dB drop in signal, so you need to organize your radios so that the weakest signals are on the radio at the top of the splitter chain. If the third radio is going to have 133.5, it might need to be on the first splitter in order to pick up the ground side and the most distant aircraft, with the second output on that splitter going to another splitter that feeds the other two radios. Some radios have better ears than others as well (even between two identical models), so you can put them further down the splitter chain. It takes time and experimentation to arrive at the configuration that gets most or all of what you want to hear, most or all of the time, and sometimes that can result in a rather elaborate setup.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on December 05, 2013, 03:22:46 PM
I forgot to factor in the loss of signal. I bet I would lose the ground communications if I split it again. I think I have room for a second antenna on the roof, just not room in the budget. I guess maybe I could ask Santa for another antenna and scanner.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: InterpreDemon on December 05, 2013, 07:57:20 PM
If the radio and antenna are for 133.5 I think there is plenty enough Santa out here to deliver. Just make your list and set it out with the milk and cookies.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on December 06, 2013, 11:12:06 AM
I think there should be enough room on the roof for a second antenna, but I will have to check and make sure. Do you have any recommendations for a homemade antenna that would work about as good as what I have up there now?
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on December 06, 2013, 08:00:47 PM
There's something strange going on on 21.5... Almost sounds like a ray gun or something. I think it stopped now. Oh, ps. 100th post in this topic.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: InterpreDemon on December 06, 2013, 11:29:58 PM
John, for VHF there are a number of home-brew choices that would probably outperform what you have now to the point where one antenna would do the job despite additional signal splitting. That bow-tie styled vertical dipole you have has a distorted gain pattern unless your mast is non-metallic, has less than unity gain, the primary objective being to handle all the typical scanner bands from 30 to 1300 mHz somewhat OK, and suffers losses from the 300/75 balun transformer. A decent VHF ground plane tuned and matched properly for our band on the top of your mast would almost certainly outperform it by at least the 3dB you are looking for and give a more uniform omnidirectional pattern as well. One can be made for almost nothing, numerous instructions all over the web, purchased for not much more. If you are handy with plumbing and/or machine tools there are better options like the vertical sleeve dipole (below) which can be designed to give very broad coverage of the VHF air band in addition to above-unity gain. I also threw in a photo of a higher grade, broad band ground plane than can be made if you have access to a machine shop.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on December 07, 2013, 12:22:15 AM
I just remembered that I need to be able to pick up UHF, as well as VHF. Part of the feed is UHF mil-air communications from McGuire/Lakehurst. I guess my ideal solution would be to use the antenna that is up there for ZNY/KWRI/KNEL (with the amplifier and a 2 way splitter) and get a second antenna for the CTAFs. I think I need the amplifier to get the ground side, but the CTAFs should be fine without the amp.
On a side note, does anyone know how to check why a feed is down when it's running on a Raspberry Pi? My feed's been down for about 20 minutes, but I don't have a clue how to fix it. Hopefully it will just fix itself by tomorrow.
Title: Re:
Post by: RonR on December 07, 2013, 10:05:27 AM
Hi John,

My feeds all run off of Pi's. They occasionally go down from time to time and all I do is power off the Pi, wait a few seconds and power it up again. That usually gets it back up. I have two Pi's bere at home and each Pi supports two feeds. I have seen it where one of the feeds  goes down while the other feed on the same Pi stays up. Not sure why that happens. Just power down and power up your Pi, that should fix it.

Sent from my Galaxy S4 using tapatalk
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on December 07, 2013, 11:16:13 AM
Yeah, the power cycle did it. I think mine went offline from a power glitch last night. The lights flashed, and that must have been enough to knock the Pi offline.
Title: Re:
Post by: RonR on December 07, 2013, 11:38:51 AM
Yeah, that power glitch definitely could do it. And then sometimes I think the Pi just wants to take a "coffee break" but forgets to come back from its "break"...you end up having to remind it to come back to work :). And in my case there are times when my Pi only half works. Go figure. Almost always though any of those problems is fixed by cycling the power.

Sent from my Galaxy S4 using tapatalk
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: InterpreDemon on December 07, 2013, 07:46:38 PM
John, a 1/4 wave VHF ground plane tuned to around 125 would be about a 5/8 wave antenna at 307mHz and probably pick up the UHF just as well as that ST-2, perhaps better. The most important thing at first is to plot the azimuth and distance to your targets as well as their relative received strength right now, then one can plan the attack.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on December 07, 2013, 08:10:42 PM
I'll make up a map of the frequencies I'm scanning and distance, to the best of my abilities. I'll post it here when I'm done.
Here's a Google map that should have all of the transmitter locations and antenna location. I'll work on measuring the distances now.
https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=zzHylcNSSWM4.kmVSMlwu1coM
Ok, here's a map with all of the distances measured on it. I'll have to change the number colors. On my laptop, they have a dark gray background, so they are actually readable.

Ok, here is the map with readable numbers. Everything is color-coded. All numbers are in miles.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on December 07, 2013, 11:48:34 PM
Just another update. I found another 2006 on ebay, so I'm going to see how that auction goes. I'm not really expecting to win it. Does anyone have any experience with a Realistic Pro 2020? There's one currently on ebay for $19.95, and $10 shipping Buy it Now. If I can't get a 2006, would the 2020 be a good one?
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: InterpreDemon on December 07, 2013, 11:52:19 PM
I am going to guess, based upon the sky in the photo of your antenna, that you have the antenna "pointed" toward BLM. If that is so, the first thing I would do is rotate the mast 180 Deg and point it at NEL. The reason is that at VHF I think the pattern is probably slightly cardiod, with a couple dB in favor of the side of the mast the antenna is adjacent to. If true, you should pick up WRI and 133.5 a bit better after the rotation, since overall you need more gain to the southwest than you do for the east and northeast. But I caution that the exact pattern of that antenna may contain some notches and lobes, so a variety of changes could occur. For example, if there is a sharp notch (null) in the pattern that can be identified, it could be aimed at that NOAA station. On the other hand, a strong lobe could be aimed at Barnegat, etc. If I had exact dimensions of the antenna I could model it on the computer, including the effect of the mast as installed, but the mfr data is very limited, in fact they do not even provide any gain figures, so it would probably be a waste of time where simple experimentation would give better data, for example, rotating 90 degrees each week and observing the results... basically in three weeks you know the best you could do with that antenna alone, then decide whether what you were not getting was worth another or better antenna.

If it were me, I would probably cut all the angled radiators off that thing, leaving the two long vertical ones, then cut them down to about 24" each, attach the coax directly at the feed point without the balun and mount the thing at least 30" from the mast... that would give you a 1/2 wave vertical dipole with fairly uniform gain around the compass card. But there again all my life I have had no qualms about instantly voiding the warranty and "improving" stuff I had just paid good money for (to paraphrase the old Zenith commercials, "the quality goes in before the name comes off") whereas you might not be so inclined. So best to first find the ideal positioning of that antenna as the Chinese engineers designed it, then go from there.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on December 08, 2013, 12:10:37 AM
If I remember correctly, I think it is aimed toward WRI. I have no problem rotating it and experimenting. It just may have to wait a few days, because it's supposed to start snowing and icing tomorrow, and on Monday I start my internship (I have to be in by 6AM, which means I have to leave by 5:30. That should be fun.) Oh, and just a correction about the engineers that designed the antenna. Their website says it was designed and Manufactured in the USA. That was one of the selling points for me. I wish I came here before buying an antenna.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: InterpreDemon on December 08, 2013, 12:47:15 AM
Methodically spinning it around over the course of the next couple weeks should prove enlightening. Sometimes these things take a bit of time to make the pattern clear, seasons, with and without leaves, etc., so the time to be thinking about making significant changes would be next Spring. By then you will know what is worth trying to pick up and what not, and what it will take to do it. Just keep in mind that to bring a marginal signal to the point where it is reliable takes about three to four times the signal strength.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on December 08, 2013, 05:46:57 PM
I just had an idea. I'm thinking maybe I should make an antenna dedicated to KWRI/KNEL/ZNY, and leave the Antennacraft up there for the CTAFs. I spent almost $50 on that antenna, so I'd like to use it for something. I don't have a problem making a custom antenna, I just have to figure out how to know what size to make it. I'll also have to look and see if there is enough room for 3 antennas on the roof. If there is, maybe I could have an antenna dedicated to each scanner.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: InterpreDemon on December 08, 2013, 07:28:27 PM
The thing to do is get that ST-2 rotated to the point where it gets everything but ZNY, NEL and WRI as good as possible, then a two or three element beam aimed at NEL should take care of the rest. On the other hand, it could well be that at the right rotation you might get the Southern three with the ST-2, in which case a ground plane at the top of the mast would easily take care of the rest. But I doubt the ST-2 will ever be able to pick up Barnegat solid, whereas a beam would and it's just a matter of how much beam you need. If you need over 5-6 dB to get it in solid you'll have to go three element. Once we know how much gain and frequency range is needed, I can give you the construction details for the antenna.

For example, here's a 4-element beam that gives 8 to 9+ dB gain with a good impedance match from 118 to 134, optimized for 129.5. You aim that baby between NEL and Barnegat and you'll get everything including the finger prints on the microphone. But if you note how the pattern changes with frequency, there may be ways of getting what you need off the back lobe(s) for the local airports depending upon the frequency.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on December 11, 2013, 02:34:06 PM
Just added KMJX (Robert J Miller Airpark) to the CTAF feed, as was requested. I think it should be within range for me.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on December 13, 2013, 02:07:48 PM
I was just planning on going up and rotating the antenna, but of course the roof has to be covered in ice. Don't know when I'll be able to get up there next, since there's supposed to be more snow this weekend. Maybe next weekend I'll get to try. We have an old rotating thing from when we used to have a TV antenna up there. Maybe I'll get to install that and I won't have to go on the roof to rotate the antenna.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: InterpreDemon on December 13, 2013, 02:38:46 PM
That would be cool... you could really figure out the pattern with that, getting best signal coordinates for each ground station... dialing as they are talking.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on December 13, 2013, 06:16:35 PM
Does anyone know where I might be able to find the frequencies for the Warren Grove Bombing Range? Sounds like they're doing some bombing practice there or at McGuire, and I'd like to listen in. I'm looking on RadioReference, but not finding much. I have to look at a map, anyway, and see if it should be in range. Looks like it's about 30 miles from me, so that should be plenty close enough to pick up the aircraft.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: AeroBill on December 14, 2013, 10:26:17 AM
Re: Warren Grove

Go to Phillyscanner.com. They list the frequencies. You have to scroll down quite a ways to get to the list.

Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on December 14, 2013, 10:57:30 AM
Thanks for that link. Looks like they have every frequency I could ever want to find.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: AeroBill on December 14, 2013, 11:07:19 AM
RE: PhillyScanner

Yes. Very comprehensive.
Should have mentioned that on the home page you need to select View Guide, then Miscellaneous and then
Aviation to get to what you want.

Enjoy.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on December 14, 2013, 11:31:51 AM
Thanks for the tip. Turns out the bombing practice is at Lakehurst, so the these frequencies weren't needed. I've been listening to the Lakehurst feed, and haven't heard anything that sounds like military practice. Oh well.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on December 15, 2013, 01:08:11 PM
Just got down from the roof. I rotated the antenna about 90 degrees, it's aimed more towards McGuire/Lakehurst/Barnegat now. I should be able to get the rotator up around Friday.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on December 31, 2013, 08:09:28 PM
Well, I've been listening to my feed for the past few hours, and, if anything, I think ground side reception has degraded for 33.5. Has anyone else been listening to the feed, and do you agree that after the rotation the reception has gone down?
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on January 14, 2014, 12:20:59 AM
33.5 is now locked out. In reality, it was never supposed to be on the feed, and was just there as a test. If I can get a 3rd scanner and make an antenna specifically for 33.5 I see no reason it couldn't have its own dedicated feed.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on January 25, 2014, 10:38:28 PM
If all this snow ever melts, I'll get up on the roof and try rotating the antenna another 90 degrees. See if I can get ground side any better.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on January 30, 2014, 11:37:27 AM
Well, sad news on the Allaire Airport front. The new owners, who want to make it a Teterboro like airport, closed off access to the hill where everyone used to go planespotting. Now if I want to go see the planes, I'll have to rent a hangar, because there is a big sign that says "Airport Tennants Only." Guess this is the end of another era.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: InterpreDemon on January 30, 2014, 01:10:02 PM
Consulting the log book, I last dropped in there for gas and a sandwich on June 7th, 1985, when it was known as Allaire airport.
Title: Re:
Post by: RonR on February 15, 2014, 11:06:50 PM
Hey John, just noticed that there doesn't seem to be any audio coming from your KNEL/KWRI/ZNY feed. I can hear 125.325 on my home scanner but nothing on your feed. Thought I'd mention it in case you didn't know.

Ron

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on February 16, 2014, 12:40:24 AM
Thanks for letting me know. I just checked, and the scanner was in Search mode. I guess the button must have accidentally got hit. It should be fixed new.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: RonR on February 16, 2014, 08:39:56 AM
Thanks John, it's all good now  :-)
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on March 05, 2014, 08:59:55 PM
This is strange, both feeds are running on the same Raspberry Pi, but right now only BLM is down. I guess I'll power cycle the Pi and see if that fixes it.
Title: Re:
Post by: RonR on March 05, 2014, 11:05:22 PM
Yes, that happens to me too from time to time. Cycling the Pi usually fixes the issue. Dont kno why that happens though.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on March 08, 2014, 05:21:31 PM
Yep, power cycling fixed it. Strange how that happened. And as far as the antenna goes, I'm thinking I'll go up on the roof and rotate it 90 degrees again one of these days. I'll see if the reception changes at all. One of these days I'll get a 3rd scanner and 2nd antenna to split up ZNY and WRI.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on September 19, 2014, 08:08:17 PM
Been a while since I posted here, but I just noticed I don't seem to be picking up the ground side too good right now. Does anyone know how long it's been like that? I can't remember if I tried the antenna in all possible positions or not. I wonder if rotating it would make that much of a difference? I really want to get a second antenna and 3rd scanner to split up ZNY/KWRI feed. Does anyone have any suggestions for the best antenna to pick up the ZNY and KWRI frequencies?

On another note, if you notice problems with the feed, please try to send me a PM or reply to this thread, because I don't check this forum all that frequently. I do check my emails regularly, so the email notification will tell me there's something wrong, and I'll get back to fixing it ASAP.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: dave on September 25, 2014, 10:24:59 PM
Been a while since I posted here, but I just noticed I don't seem to be picking up the ground side too good right now. Does anyone know how long it's been like that? I can't remember if I tried the antenna in all possible positions or not. I wonder if rotating it would make that much of a difference? I really want to get a second antenna and 3rd scanner to split up ZNY/KWRI feed. Does anyone have any suggestions for the best antenna to pick up the ZNY and KWRI frequencies?

On another note, if you notice problems with the feed, please try to send me a PM or reply to this thread, because I don't check this forum all that frequently. I do check my emails regularly, so the email notification will tell me there's something wrong, and I'll get back to fixing it ASAP.

Rotating that antenna is unlikely to do much of anything, John.  The issue is more likely a local noise level issue - something that could take a lot of debugging and that may not be easy to cure.  It could also be a change in setup on the base station (ATC) end.  They've been revamping a lot of equipment - and depending on a number of factors it could have made things more marginal.  If I recall that signal was right on the edge anyway.

From this vantage point it is all guessing.  Those broadband antennas are not ideal for optima ATC reception.  Better to use one tuned for VHF airband - but even that is no guarantee of picking up any particular ground station.  It's all about stacking the odds in your favor.

Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: ferraraj on October 12, 2014, 01:39:14 PM
The feed lost ZNY-CAMRN (118.975) ground reception about 5 months ago (Late spring ish)
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on October 12, 2014, 01:48:35 PM
From this vantage point it is all guessing.  Those broadband antennas are not ideal for optima ATC reception.  Better to use one tuned for VHF airband - but even that is no guarantee of picking up any particular ground station.  It's all about stacking the odds in your favor.
Is it possible to make an antenna that would be good for these ATC frequencies? I'd really like to try to improve the ground-side reception, but don't want to go spending a lot of money on an antenna that may not even help. Is there anything else I could try to do besides changing the antenna? Of course it probably doesn't help that my house is surrounded by trees. Oh, I forgot to mention that I had to lock out 372.200. I was picking up nothing but static, and if I adjusted the squelch to fix 372.200, the scanner wouldn't pick up the other frequencies too good.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: RonR on October 14, 2014, 10:24:51 AM
Hi John, yes it's possible to build your own antenna.  I copied this information from another thread:

*******
A quarter wave ground plane antenna is easy to make for less than $5.  You'll need a soldering iron and solder too.
Shopping list:
11 ft of 12awg solid wire(not stranded)
SO239 connector (Radio Shack No. 278-201)

Cut the wire into equal lengths of 23 inches
Insert one wire into center of the SO239 connector and solder it into place.
Make a loop in the other four wires and loop them into the four holes in the SO239 connector
Solder the four wires in place perpendicular to the center conductor wire.
NOTE: This will be about 70 Ohms.  Ideally you want 50 Ohms.  To get 50 Ohms you need to be at 135 deg from the center radial
Make a loop in the center conductor wire so you can hang it by string or rope. 

This is a great attic antenna and it works very well.  The 50 Ohm version is what I use for the KHSV feed.

Link to how to build it but use my wire lengths:
http://www.hamuniverse.com/2metergp.html

*******

I never tried this myself but I thought I'd pass it along.  I hope this helps...

Ron
Title: Re:
Post by: JohnN on October 14, 2014, 11:52:13 AM
I'll have to try that. I might even have enough wire laying around already. Hopefully it will improve the reception. For $5, it's worth a shot.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on October 17, 2014, 01:36:48 PM
Just in case anyone is wondering, I ordered the connector last night, so I will give that antenna a try when it gets here.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on November 24, 2014, 09:19:22 PM
Hi John, yes it's possible to build your own antenna.  I copied this information from another thread:

*******
A quarter wave ground plane antenna is easy to make for less than $5.  You'll need a soldering iron and solder too.
Shopping list:
11 ft of 12awg solid wire(not stranded)
SO239 connector (Radio Shack No. 278-201)

Cut the wire into equal lengths of 23 inches
Insert one wire into center of the SO239 connector and solder it into place.
Make a loop in the other four wires and loop them into the four holes in the SO239 connector
Solder the four wires in place perpendicular to the center conductor wire.
NOTE: This will be about 70 Ohms.  Ideally you want 50 Ohms.  To get 50 Ohms you need to be at 135 deg from the center radial
Make a loop in the center conductor wire so you can hang it by string or rope. 

This is a great attic antenna and it works very well.  The 50 Ohm version is what I use for the KHSV feed.

Link to how to build it but use my wire lengths:
http://www.hamuniverse.com/2metergp.html

*******

I never tried this myself but I thought I'd pass it along.  I hope this helps...

Ron

Ok, so I got the connector a few weeks ago. I'm going to try making the antenna this weekend, but I have few questions. First, I see the connector takes PL-259 Coax, but I currently only have RG-6. Is there an adaptor I could use, or is my only option to buy some 259? My other question is, how important do you think height will be with this antenna? I don't really see any way I would be able to mount this on my roof, so I would have to either put it on top of the desk or in the attic. Do you think the extra height would be better, even with the extra coax?
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: InterpreDemon on December 02, 2014, 10:55:14 PM
John, in the attic would be best, just hang it from the ridge board. Try to locate it as far from computers or network wiring as possible.

As to your connector problem, just get a PL259 to F adapter, like this one from Radio Shack:

http://www.radioshack.com/f-to-pl-259-adapter/2780258.html
Title: Re:
Post by: JohnN on December 02, 2014, 10:57:56 PM
Ok, thanks. The attic shouldn't be too hard to do. I wasn't sure about an adapter, because I was a little concerned about signal loss. I'll try to get this up this weekend.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on December 15, 2014, 11:56:30 AM
Ok, I know I've been saying I will get this new antenna up one of these days, but this time I mean it. I have just a few days left in this semester of college, so after I'm done I should have a lot of free time. I'll just have to get the adapter, and then I should be good to go. Should be up in the next few weeks.
Title: Re: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
Post by: JohnN on December 19, 2014, 09:26:31 PM
Ok, just ordered the adapter. RadioShack had free 2 day shipping, so it should be here soon. I'm done with this semester of college, so now I have no excuses for the next month or so. I WILL get this done.