KJFK Twr vs. KORD Twr - Observations

[Marty Becker]

I have noted two difference in KJFK tower operations verses KORD operations.

• KJFK - The tower controllers are always adjusting speeds of aircraft on final.
• KORD  - The tower controllers adjust the speeds of aircraft on final ALOT less often than KJFK.  The KORD final(s) seems to flow better.

• KJFK - Aircraft checkin with the tower at various points on final.
• KORD  - Aircraft checkin with the tower at the marker.  When aircraft checkin before the marker, the tower controller will chastise an aircraft who checks in early and then tells them to report the marker.

Anyone care to shed some light on these differences?

Thanks!

[rpd]

1- There are probably different procedures in the LOA's as to when aircraft are shipped to the tower.  Sounds like ORD is supposed to be at the marker.

2- If ORD aircraft are shipped at the marker, speed adjustments inside of the marker are not allowed.  That is why you hear approach controllers say "maintain 170 knots until the marker".  If JFK tower is talking to aircraft 10 miles out, they can issue speed adjustments.

3- ORD has way more runways.  They don't need to make any space for departures.

[NY Z Pilot]

This is very simple. It actually has nothing to do with the towers, its has to do with a TRACON that knows what theyre doing, and a TRACON that doesnt.

[dave]

This is very simple. It actually has nothing to do with the towers, its has to do with a TRACON that knows what theyre doing, and a TRACON that doesnt.

Really?  When was the last time you were behind a scope in busy airspace?

[NY Z Pilot]

This is very simple. It actually has nothing to do with the towers, its has to do with a TRACON that knows what theyre doing, and a TRACON that doesnt.

Really?  When was the last time you were behind a scope in busy airspace?

Actually last night... I dont mean any harm but its a fact. It may have to do with training or TMU not putting in a program for the arrivals and its just too busy so the tower has to help out and adjust speeds etc. HOWEVER, there are a few controllers in a certain TRACON that give you bad spacing and they do it on purpose because of issues that go on between facilities.

[ogogog]

LOAs differ from facility to facility at C90 the LOA for transfer of control for both ORD and MDW is the OM/FAF. there are certin configs at ORD where C90 dose make room for Depts, for example plan X Trip  4R/10/9R the 9R vector controller has to give ORD 6 miles at touch down for the 4L/9R depatures

OG

[NY Z Pilot]

LOAs differ from facility to facility at C90 the LOA for transfer of control for both ORD and MDW is the OM/FAF. there are certin configs at ORD where C90 dose make room for Depts, for example plan X Trip  4R/10/9R the 9R vector controller has to give ORD 6 miles at touch down for the 4L/9R depatures

OG

Thats the way it should be.

[NY]

HOWEVER, there are a few controllers in a certain TRACON that give you bad spacing and they do it on purpose because of issues that go on between facilities.
[/quote]

Really I would like to know the issues since I work in New York and haven't gotten the memo yet. The fact is ORD runs more spacing on final because they can. That is not an option in any NY metro airport unless you want 4 hour delays everyday. we have to run min. spacing and to do that everyone shares the work load tower and TRACON to maintain separation.

[ogogog]

Really I would like to know the issues since I work in New York and haven't gotten the memo yet. The fact is ORD runs more spacing on final because they can. That is not an option in any NY metro airport unless you want 4 hour delays everyday. we have to run min. spacing and to do that everyone shares the work load tower and TRACON to maintain separation.


[/quote]

who you guys kidding , you get 2 clouds in the sky and you start having 4 hour delays.

OG   

P.S  C90 dose not use extra room on final ,never did never will

[NY Z Pilot]

HOWEVER, there are a few controllers in a certain TRACON that give you bad spacing and they do it on purpose because of issues that go on between facilities.

Really I would like to know the issues since I work in New York and haven't gotten the memo yet. The fact is ORD runs more spacing on final because they can. That is not an option in any NY metro airport unless you want 4 hour delays everyday. we have to run min. spacing and to do that everyone shares the work load tower and TRACON to maintain separation.


[/quote]

I dont disagree with that... often that is the case and it works out great, its actually pretty amazing the things that happen. Im just saying theres a few people that let it run and dont care.

[towercab]

Coming from a tower that is in constant battle with our tracon, I agree with NY Z Pilot. Here, if we are issuing speeds from the tower, it's because whoever is working approach either doesn't care, or doesn't know what their job is. Not to mention a poorly interpreted section of our loa that says the tower is responsible for separation on contact...so some people will just hand you a cluster and think they did their job. Meanwhile you missed getting that departure out because you are playing approach controller with aircraft 10 miles away. On the upside, you know when someone is doing their job...everything just works and you can concentrate on what's outside the window.

Then there's wake turbulence separation in addition to IFR separation, some think 3 miles is all you need for everyone. Not true. Another reason for speed adjustments by the tower.

Having worked at an Up/Down facility, they have less of these problems.

[SlowBleed]

This is very simple. It actually has nothing to do with the towers, its has to do with a TRACON that knows what theyre doing, and a TRACON that doesnt.

     So, you are saying that N90 doesn't know what they are doing? Looking at your previous posts shows that you are recently hired within the last 4 years.
     Have you ever worked in C90? Have you ever worked at N90? Could you please enlighten me/us on how you came upon your decision in the above statement?
     It's obvious that you only have worked in a tower. In one of your following posts you stated that you sat in front of a busy radar scope. Working the LRAC position in a tower isn't working radar as all of the aircraft you are working are VFR.
     Are you now checked out at JFK tower yet? From what i've heard, close to 40% of the facility has less than 5 years experience. That is a good and bad thing. The good thing is that they are excited about the job. The negative about that is the lack of experience. It will come in time and it depends upon the individual whether they will grow as a controller.
     I've worked in a tower and i currently work at a TRACON. There are good controllers and bad controllers in both the tower and the approach side. Don't lump us all together as it is offensive and non-constructive.

[ogogog]

its piss poor policy, procedure for the tower controller to have to provide seperation for aircraft not in there airspace.at busy airports like ORD JFK ATL DFW etc where tower and approach are not combined facility each facility should only be seperating aircraft in there own airspace. this is why the finals at ORD/C90 work so well we have a standard transfer of control points with the tower which is basiclly the airspace boundry with tower airspace ie OM/FAF.as long as C90 provides the correct spaceing at the OM it is the ORD towers job to provide the IFR seperation or if weather perimts VISUAL seperation to the RWY (this changes when ORD/C90 is doing Simal ILSs then its the monitors job top provide limited seperation in towers air space).

i dont see how N90 can run a consistent final if the tower is allowed to change speed in approach airspace with out the approach controller knowing it, maybe this is part of the problem with JFK/N90.

and SnowBleed can you explain what you mean about all the aircraft  on the LARC tower freq being VFR? you say your a controller but do you know what a LARC really is, how dose a IFR became a VFR A/C then talking to a LARC tower controller? you do know a LARC tower is able to provide IFR radar seperation as well as Visual seperation in its own airspace? providing Visuial seperation dose not make an aircraft VFR.

OG
C90/ZAU
Retired

[SlowBleed]

ogogog - i am currently an air traffic controller in N90.
     The tower does adjust airspeed on the final. Technically they are required to advise the final controller that the aircraft's speed has been adjusted, but that is rarely the case. On the other side of the coin, the final controller should not be dumping on the local controller and giving him a crappy feed. I've seen terrible handling of aircraft on both sides. Meaning that the final controller is jamming the local controller and the local controller adjusting speeds unnecessarily.
     ogogog - LRAC - Limited Radar Approach Control. That is the radar position in the tower cab that tags up the VFR aircraft that transition the class bravo airspace. This makes the LRAC a different entity than the local controller working the arrival final/departure runway. When JFK is fed IFR arrivals, we don't hand the IFR arrivals off to the tower. Those aircraft are not 'flashed'. They are just switched over before the FAF. There is no LOA between N90 and JFK that dictates a specific point for transfer of control. That could possibly be in the works so that the adjustment of speeds can be minimized.
     I have worked in a tower as well as N90. From having previous tower experience, it is easy to tell when the tower is getting jammed. However, I can also tell when as an approach controller, i'm getting the shitty end of the stick. I have a total of 20 years experience and i'm not trying to be judgemental between facilities.
     I cannot say anything about C90's operation because I have never seen it nor am I familiar with it. I just have an issue when comments are made about operations that the individual has no idea of what they are talking about. I will just stick with the facts that I know about regarding facilities that I have worked or are familiar with.
     Not trying to get into a pissing contest. I'm just trying to clear some things up.

[NY Z Pilot]

I guess I should have been more specific. I didn't mean a TRACON as a whole. It came to my attention that there are a few people that work the final tight, losing separation, purposely for whatever reason, straight from the mouth of their coworkers. I have nothing but respect for all the facilities mentioned. Theres no doubt that a few people like that exist in every facility... judging from your last post SnowBleed looks like you may agree.
SnowBleed - I'm not going to give details... Ive never worked N90, but I started at an up/down that had a decent amount of traffic. I'm CPC now 2 years at my current location.

[ogogog]

SnowBleed, i see what you were refering to, i thought you were talking about the local controller with the IFRs/VFRs and not the VFR radar position.iam not sure how your LOAs are written but both ORD and MDW LOAs state the the towers (local control) are responsable for seperation of the IFR arrivals inside the transfer of control points as long as approach has given the proper spaceing and use both IFR and VFR seperation as needed to the RWY.i assume at JFK that they arrive and dept on the same RWYs where in Chicago ORD uses arrival only and dept only rwys except on certain configs so we can jam the arrival rwys a little more than you can at JFK.if you jam them too much you just start to get go arounds and if get 2 or more in a row you just add another mile to the spaceing, now thats when its VMC when its LIFR well we have to give them standard spaceing.almost all ORD arrival rwys we have reduced seperation of  2 1/2 in side of the 10 mile ring with a large large, the problem comes from the 757/heavys which your well aware of. 

OG
C90/ZAU
retired