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Air Traffic Monitoring => Listener Forum => Topic started by: knish1231 on September 21, 2005, 07:58:56 PM

Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: knish1231 on September 21, 2005, 07:58:56 PM
So Cal feed 50% full....unbelivable.....
Title: Re: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: dave on September 21, 2005, 08:03:05 PM
Quote from: knish1231
So Cal feed 50% full....unbelivable.....


No, that's not 50% full...that is 50% of all LiveATC listeners are listening to that feed right now.
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: lyric782001 on September 21, 2005, 08:44:07 PM
Stream listeners: 557 of 616 total listeners
90% listening to this stream
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: Jonathan_tcu on September 21, 2005, 08:51:50 PM
I'm listening to So Cal now, but there is a loud buzzing sound, almost like double transmissions and I can't really hear them clearly.  Airbus A320 has a problem with a landing gear that is broadcasting on CTV NewsNet.
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: tflight on September 21, 2005, 08:55:29 PM
We are trying to cover the news from the feed and the TV on the Jet Blue emergency landing (http://www.flightnest.com/2005/09/21/jet-blue-preps-for-lax-emergency-landing/)
Title: Conspiracy
Post by: davolijj on September 21, 2005, 09:31:27 PM
Jet Blue and Airbus have probably been rehearsing this for months.  What a great Public relations move.  :roll:

It really was a nice landing though.  I've had harder landings with GOOD landing gear.
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: Tom56 on September 21, 2005, 09:33:58 PM
Was that a text book landing or what!
Excellent job by the flight crew...  8)
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: PHL Approach on September 21, 2005, 09:34:37 PM
lol, Im sure they didn't plan to have a loss this quarter.
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: tflight on September 21, 2005, 09:38:29 PM
and he landed exactly on centerline! (http://www.flightnest.com/2005/09/21/jet-blue-preps-for-lax-emergency-landing/)!!!
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: Jonathan_tcu on September 21, 2005, 09:41:32 PM
I saw the landing and I thought his straight-in approach was with a localizer.  Didn't know about that front tire if it was gonna catch fire for good or not.  I'm impressed!
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: Check Airman on September 21, 2005, 10:04:06 PM
Quote from: tflight
and he landed exactly on centerline! (http://www.flightnest.com/2005/09/21/jet-blue-preps-for-lax-emergency-landing/)!!!


That's the most amazing part. That crew should get their pay trippled.
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: bschott on September 21, 2005, 10:07:17 PM
Quote from: tflight
and he landed exactly on centerline! (http://www.flightnest.com/2005/09/21/jet-blue-preps-for-lax-emergency-landing/)!!!


If you mean by that picture from CNN.com, that is a computer generated image and not a real picture from the landing.

Also notice how CNN tried to sensationalize the news?  "Flames shot off the front landing gear as the plane ground to a halt with firefighters at the ready."

I didn't see any grinding going on and a brief flare from the nose gear but it didn't SHOOT flames.  

Can't they report the facts anymore?  First they report a fuel dump (which the A320 can't do), then they can't agree if it landed on 24R or 25L.  Next they might say that they think it landed at JFK instead of LAX. sheeesh.
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: Love_To_Fly on September 21, 2005, 10:14:32 PM
How long does it take for the archives to be updated?  It was so busy between 8:30pm till the plane landed I never got a chance to hear the SOCAL audio.... I now will rely on the archives! :)

And about that landing.. WOW!!  It was "picture perfect".  Almost better than some normal landings i have seen!    Just by seeing the landing you could tell the pilots were very calm and acted very accordignly.   I can't WAIT till I complete all my flight training and get my commercial licence!  I LOVE AVIATION!!
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: Jason on September 21, 2005, 11:40:21 PM
A big applause for the pilots and crew members.  An emergency is tough to deal with, especially when 145 people are aboard.  These pilots acted in a calm, professional manner which is the key to sucess in any emergency.  I was a very proud pilot when the A320 touched down; I couldn't have asked for a more perfect landing.

Please feel free to post your kudos to the pilots and controllers.
Title: Questions
Post by: SadWinter on September 21, 2005, 11:51:51 PM
Great landing.....  did u notice there wasnt spoilers or reverse thrust? can someone explain that?
And yeah....it was an ILS aprox.....
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: KPryor on September 21, 2005, 11:52:43 PM
Very impressive!  I just saw the video and couldn't believe it went that well.  The crew deserves a big pat on the back for that one.
KP
Title: Re: Questions
Post by: frantzy on September 21, 2005, 11:55:13 PM
Quote from: SadWinter
did u notice there wasnt spoilers or reverse thrust? can someone explain that?


Just a guess but I thought it would shift the weight forward onto the nose gear, increasing the likelihood of a collapse.
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: JALTO on September 21, 2005, 11:58:36 PM
Quote from: bschott
Quote from: tflight
and he landed exactly on centerline! (http://www.flightnest.com/2005/09/21/jet-blue-preps-for-lax-emergency-landing/)!!!


If you mean by that picture from CNN.com, that is a computer generated image and not a real picture from the landing.

Also notice how CNN tried to sensationalize the news?  "Flames shot off the front landing gear as the plane ground to a halt with firefighters at the ready."

I didn't see any grinding going on and a brief flare from the nose gear but it didn't SHOOT flames.  

Can't they report the facts anymore?  First they report a fuel dump (which the A320 can't do), then they can't agree if it landed on 24R or 25L.  Next they might say that they think it landed at JFK instead of LAX. sheeesh.


Wow...I would expect a post like this to be on airliners.net where everyone gets flamed or "Flared" depending on how you want to phrase it.

I just heard on the unreliable cnn tv that the B6 passengers actually got to watch coverage of the situation on the in flight entertainment system!  Now that beats peanuts and a coke any day of the week.
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: Jason on September 22, 2005, 12:09:58 AM
I'm surprised that the crew did not turn the system off since it would make more problems than needed for them (pax becoming more anxious, more questions, no answers for them, etc, etc)

To answer the question about no reverse thrust, I'm not too familiar with the A320, but (I thought the spoilers were deployed, but I may be mistaken) I have to take a different opinion then frantzy.  If you've every heard of the story of airliners "backing" out of there gates if no tugs are available (on certain a/c) using reverse thrust, if the brakes are applied quickly, the tail will shoot down, hit the ground and force the nose up in the air.  (Imagine, a plane to a rocket ship :-P)  I believe that reverse thrust would relieve nosewheel pressure unless it would never be used.  If the thrust direction was changed 180 degrees (reversed) then the high amount of drag (mostly caused by thrust but partly parasite) would relieve nosewheel pressure as it comes down.  If it forced it further down [into the runway] that could cause damage to the nosewheel and strut.  Not an expert on this, but it doesn't seem to be rocket science (No pun intended John M.  :lol: )

Jason
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: stealth71 on September 22, 2005, 12:26:39 AM
JALTO, local news in Missoula did the same thing, almost called them up to tell them to cool it after the following comments;

"The aircraft skidded wildly down the runway..."

"...could have ignited the highly explosive jet fuel."

Well, that was one of the smoothest landings I've ever seen, didn't see any wild skidding. Jet fuel explosive? Hmmmm, speaking as a fuel CQ manager at MSO, jet fuel is flammable. It's not explosive unless it's dispersed into a mist.  Media. :roll:
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: JALTO on September 22, 2005, 12:39:49 AM
media = entertainment.....I guess they did their job if we kept watching!  But then again I know nothing about the media business and will not comment on them any further.

And now moving on.....hopefully they can now use this situation for training new and experienced pilots around the world on how to handle emergencies like this and keep our behinds even safer while traveling the skies.  Good job to the pilots and crew for safe landing and keeping the passengers calm.

PS...my "unreliable" cnn comment was a joke!

-J
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: tyketto on September 22, 2005, 01:36:31 AM
For the question of why the reverse thrust wasn't used...

The answer is simple.. momentum/inertia. :)

Think about it.. you feel pushed forward when the plane rolls out and the reverse thrusters are activated. just like breaks on a car. With the front gear sideways, if the reverse thrusters were used, the front gear would have collapsed. Not a good thing.. so let it coast, and what you see is history. :)

BL.
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: SadWinter on September 22, 2005, 01:53:07 AM
Thanks a lot for the answer... When I was watching the landing I was screaming for spoilers hehehe
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: sam_nz on September 22, 2005, 06:31:49 AM
Wow!

I missed that on SoCal feed cause I happened to be at our airport doing a bit of plane spotting but I just watched the video.

As one who is slowly learning (so forgive any errors), that was a stunning piece of airmanship from the crew.  Cool, calm, collected.  Knew exactly what they needed to do and did it.

All I need to do now is find the archives. :P
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: Jonathan_tcu on September 22, 2005, 06:36:12 AM
I was just listening to a radio station online from London Ontario, and heard comments from passengers who were thrilled, excited and very pleased with the manor the pilots landed that aircraft.  

"It was the best landing I have ever seen! "
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: Jason on September 22, 2005, 06:55:10 AM
Quote from: tyketto
For the question of why the reverse thrust wasn't used...

The answer is simple.. momentum/inertia. :)


Doh!  :oops:
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: PHL Approach on September 22, 2005, 07:18:49 AM
Brian, this is not a forum where we start arguments or flaming etc, keep it either on A.net or the Vatsim.net forums.

Out of any factor, I believe the thrust reversers were not released, because of fear about peices of the nose gear being ingested into the engines. They already are spending enough money repairing the gear and patching the belly, the last thing they want to worry about is replacing two IAE V2527's.
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: bcrosby on September 22, 2005, 09:14:25 AM
Here is a nice shot of the fire..
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: deverette on September 22, 2005, 11:04:52 AM
Quote
Out of any factor, I believe the thrust reversers were not released, because of fear about peices of the nose gear being ingested into the engines. They already are spending enough money repairing the gear and patching the belly, the last thing they want to worry about is replacing two IAE V2527's.


Brings up a question I have. Granted the captain has the final say, but what would the typical protocol/procedure be with the engines in a situation like this? Would you shut them down immediately once you were committed to the landing to minimize possibility of injesting anything coming off the nose gear assembly? If you do shut them down, how long until you'll lose effective hydraulic pressure to maintain directional control with the rudder (obviously once it's no longer aerodynamically effective, it's mute point)? Would you energize the APU and run electric hydraulic pumps to keep the pressure up? Or would you leave the engines running, so there is an alternative method of maintaining directional control (with the engines) if it's necessary.

Pardon my ignorance on the A320 flight systems, just curious.
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: KSYR-pjr on September 22, 2005, 11:45:25 AM
Quote
Brings up a question I have. Granted the captain has the final say, but what would the typical protocol/procedure be with the engines in a situation like this? Would you shut them down immediately once you were committed to the landing to minimize possibility of injesting anything coming off the nose gear assembly?


I am only a GA pilot, so take this for what its worth:  In the GA world, we are constantly drilled with the concept that once an emergency occurs, the aircraft is owned by the insurance company.  In other words, do what needs to be done to save the people; do not do something silly to endanger the people by attempting to save the aircraft.

There have been more than a few GA landing-gear-failed-to-fully-deploy-and-lock emergencies where the pilot attempted to save the engine/prop by shutting down the engine on short final.  In some of these cases, the pilot lost airspeed awareness and stalled the aircraft, nosing in from 100 feet or so.  These accidents are tragic but avoidable.

In the case of the Airbus, I would speculate that there was no attempt to shut down the engines on short final.
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: KSYR-pjr on September 22, 2005, 11:54:17 AM
There were some excellent observations brought up by someone in the aviation newsgroups.  

Why didn't the LAX airport rescue squad immediately jack up the Airbus nosewheel before letting anyone exit the front door and mill around the nose of the aircraft?   Supposedly there were a handful of people wandering underneath the nose of the aircraft as passengers exited the aircraft.

Also, why didn't the same group have a few stair vehicles available to utilize more than just the one front door after the aircraft came to a stop?

(not my observations, but they seem very astute to me)
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: deverette on September 22, 2005, 12:39:58 PM
Quote
I am only a GA pilot, so take this for what its worth: In the GA world, we are constantly drilled with the concept that once an emergency occurs, the aircraft is owned by the insurance company. In other words, do what needs to be done to save the people; do not do something silly to endanger the people by attempting to save the aircraft.


Peter, don't get me wrong, I fully appreciate and understand the Captain's (PIC's) responsibilities. The basis for my question can be said that taking steps to keep the airplane intact is inextricably linked to passenger safety. I wasn't thinking about shutting the engines down on short final, since you're still not committed to the landing (he could have even put the mains on the ground, and still aborted the landing). I was thinking once the Captain decided "this is it", then kill them. Again, I'm not familiar with the A320 systems or the peripheral consequences of any of the things I mentioned. I'm just trying to get some insight on the actual decision-making process that is going on.

Quote
Why didn't the LAX airport rescue squad immediately jack up the Airbus nosewheel before letting anyone exit the front door and mill around the nose of the aircraft? Supposedly there were a handful of people wandering underneath the nose of the aircraft as passengers exited the aircraft.


When I saw a bunch of people walking around the nose gear assembly of the plane when it was down, I thought the same thing. I was saying to the TV "Uhhh, DUH, that support which is holding that multi-ton airplane above your head has just been subjected to incredible stresses it wasn't specifically designed for..." Guess those guys haven't spent any time around/near/working with suspended loads..

Ahh well..
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: frantzy on September 22, 2005, 01:18:33 PM
Quote from: PHL_Approach
Brian, this is not a forum where we start arguments or flaming etc, keep it either on A.net or the Vatsim.net forums.


...which to me is the BEST aspect of the LiveATC forums.  It's such a pleasant change from so many forums these days.

Mike
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: tyketto on September 22, 2005, 01:26:27 PM
Quote from: frantzy
Quote from: PHL_Approach
Brian, this is not a forum where we start arguments or flaming etc, keep it either on A.net or the Vatsim.net forums.


...which to me is the BEST aspect of the LiveATC forums.  It's such a pleasant change from so many forums these days.

Mike


And to be honest, it doesn't even belong on the VATSIM forums. Leave the advocacy stuff to A.net alone..

BL.
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: PHL Approach on September 22, 2005, 03:01:45 PM
I agree with you Brad, but Brian seams to throw stuff like that out on the Vatsim forums "often". There is no stopping that on that forum anyway, it will continue.  :x
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: MSN ATC on September 22, 2005, 05:07:42 PM
Did anybody else notice that while the tires were burning off, the flames were much more pronounced whenever the nose gear was going over one of the center stripes? Flames were not nearly as bad on raw pavement.  Watch the video. Wonder what would cause that.
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: bschott on September 22, 2005, 08:16:59 PM
(not commenting on the flames and backhanded comments)

Personally I think the pilot did well, should get a bonus or something for that landing.  seems the liveatc server died during this event so the audio wasn't recorded.  Kinda sad, would have been great to have a record of that.
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: tyketto on September 22, 2005, 08:37:23 PM
Quote from: bschott
(not commenting on the flames and backhanded comments)

Personally I think the pilot did well, should get a bonus or something for that landing.  seems the liveatc server died during this event so the audio wasn't recorded.  Kinda sad, would have been great to have a record of that.


Also, take into account that the feed you're getting is based way out near Ontario! I personally know the guy that set up the feed. He's mainly covering Ontario, but he's high enough that he can cover Harbour, Manhattan, Stadium, Coast, Banning, Downey, Zuma, and part of Center. We'd be lucky if he did get LAX Tower. Unfortunately, he's just too far out. Hoepfully someone closer (like at In-n-Out) will set up a feed for LA Tower.

BL.
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: bschott on September 22, 2005, 08:54:15 PM
Quote from: tyketto
Quote from: bschott
(not commenting on the flames and backhanded comments)

Personally I think the pilot did well, should get a bonus or something for that landing.  seems the liveatc server died during this event so the audio wasn't recorded.  Kinda sad, would have been great to have a record of that.


Also, take into account that the feed you're getting is based way out near Ontario! I personally know the guy that set up the feed. He's mainly covering Ontario, but he's high enough that he can cover Harbour, Manhattan, Stadium, Coast, Banning, Downey, Zuma, and part of Center. We'd be lucky if he did get LAX Tower. Unfortunately, he's just too far out. Hoepfully someone closer (like at In-n-Out) will set up a feed for LA Tower.

BL.


That wasn't a flame at all directed to the guy. I said it seemed like the LiveATC server died from the traffic hitting it....it got swamped.  Nothing against anyone...just high traffic.  Please (and this isn't a putdown) look at my post first...it was just mentioning how it was sad that the server went down and we lost the recording. That's it.
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: tyketto on September 23, 2005, 01:16:21 AM
Quote from: bschott
That wasn't a flame at all directed to the guy. I said it seemed like the LiveATC server died from the traffic hitting it....it got swamped.  Nothing against anyone...just high traffic.  Please (and this isn't a putdown) look at my post first...it was just mentioning how it was sad that the server went down and we lost the recording. That's it.


Oh, by all means, please don't get me wrong! I know you weren't intending your post to be flaming.. If I came off that way, I apologise. I just wish that we had a feed that was closer to LAX tower. the SoCAL feed is great, don't get me wrong, but in this case, we were missing a lot when the emergency happened, because the feed was, like you said, way swamped that it tanked, and that the source of the feed was so far out.

We'll just have to get a feed down there.

BL.
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: glonch on September 23, 2005, 08:57:59 AM
Quote from: pweeden
Did anybody else notice that while the tires were burning off, the flames were much more pronounced whenever the nose gear was going over one of the center stripes? Flames were not nearly as bad on raw pavement.  Watch the video. Wonder what would cause that.


I saw that too.  Could it be when the pilot was applying (pumping) the brakes, hydraulic fluid was being pumped out and flaming up?
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: KSYR-pjr on September 23, 2005, 09:20:28 AM
Quote from: glonch
I saw that too.  Could it be when the pilot was applying (pumping) the brakes, hydraulic fluid was being pumped out and flaming up?


Too coincidental.  :)
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: MSN ATC on September 23, 2005, 10:13:02 AM
It's gotta be something in the striping paint that made it flare up.  Maybe it's time for a $10M NTSB study on Runway Materials & Fire Safety.

ATC Content: Anybody ever figure out why this site melted down at the height of the drama?
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: sam_nz on September 23, 2005, 10:55:03 AM
Server overload?
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: tyketto on September 23, 2005, 12:35:17 PM
Quote from: glonch
Quote from: pweeden
Did anybody else notice that while the tires were burning off, the flames were much more pronounced whenever the nose gear was going over one of the center stripes? Flames were not nearly as bad on raw pavement.  Watch the video. Wonder what would cause that.


I saw that too.  Could it be when the pilot was applying (pumping) the brakes, hydraulic fluid was being pumped out and flaming up?


It had to do with the chemicals used in the paint for the runway centerline.  Whatever was used in it certainly flammable. With this in mind, the Airport Authorities may have to investigate why it happened, and possibly go with another type of paint. That will be a bear, if they need to repaint every runway centerline/line for every field. It's that serious.

BL.
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: 71sbeetle on September 23, 2005, 12:41:22 PM
you do also know that these wheels are made out of magnesium right, wich is highly flammable
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: tyketto on September 23, 2005, 02:42:20 PM
Quote from: 71sbeetle
you do also know that these wheels are made out of magnesium right, wich is highly flammable


Actually, I think you're right about this. After looking at the video again, that does not look like the type of 'normal' fire you'd see. It's almost like what you'd see during the lighting of a match, just on a bigger scale. I don't think it's the centerline now..

BL.
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: MSN ATC on September 23, 2005, 03:05:09 PM
Quote from: tyketto
I don't think it's the centerline now.


But the fire is definitely stronger when the gear is on the centerline paint.
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: 71sbeetle on September 23, 2005, 03:10:29 PM
Quote from: KSYR-pjr


.

In the case of the Airbus, I would speculate that there was no attempt to shut down the engines on short final.


also in teh part 121 world, price of parts is MUCH lower than price of a life of a passenger, on a prop airplane, you would also get more damages on prop strike that wont happen here, unless the nose gear had collapsed and even then
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: 71sbeetle on September 23, 2005, 03:13:04 PM
Quote from: pweeden
Quote from: tyketto
I don't think it's the centerline now.


But the fire is definitely stronger when the gear is on the centerline paint.


true, looks like the paint creates a higher friction !
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: ei6265 on September 29, 2005, 06:02:30 PM
Hi all,

Just wondering is there an audio clip available from the time of the incident?

Thanks,

Daryl
Title: jet blue landing at LAX
Post by: CYUL on September 30, 2005, 09:02:10 PM
If these are off-topic my apologies, I though you guys would enjoy them.

Here are some pics:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/poumat/nose.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/poumat/nose1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/poumat/nose3.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/poumat/nose4.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/poumat/nose5.jpg)

New and improved after the repair:

http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=552656

CYUL