Author Topic: jet blue landing at LAX  (Read 39796 times)

Offline Jason

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jet blue landing at LAX
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2005, 06:55:10 AM »
Quote from: tyketto
For the question of why the reverse thrust wasn't used...

The answer is simple.. momentum/inertia. :)


Doh!  :oops:

Offline PHL Approach

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« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2005, 07:18:49 AM »
Brian, this is not a forum where we start arguments or flaming etc, keep it either on A.net or the Vatsim.net forums.

Out of any factor, I believe the thrust reversers were not released, because of fear about peices of the nose gear being ingested into the engines. They already are spending enough money repairing the gear and patching the belly, the last thing they want to worry about is replacing two IAE V2527's.

Offline bcrosby

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jet blue landing at LAX
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2005, 09:14:25 AM »
Here is a nice shot of the fire..

Offline deverette

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jet blue landing at LAX
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2005, 11:04:52 AM »
Quote
Out of any factor, I believe the thrust reversers were not released, because of fear about peices of the nose gear being ingested into the engines. They already are spending enough money repairing the gear and patching the belly, the last thing they want to worry about is replacing two IAE V2527's.


Brings up a question I have. Granted the captain has the final say, but what would the typical protocol/procedure be with the engines in a situation like this? Would you shut them down immediately once you were committed to the landing to minimize possibility of injesting anything coming off the nose gear assembly? If you do shut them down, how long until you'll lose effective hydraulic pressure to maintain directional control with the rudder (obviously once it's no longer aerodynamically effective, it's mute point)? Would you energize the APU and run electric hydraulic pumps to keep the pressure up? Or would you leave the engines running, so there is an alternative method of maintaining directional control (with the engines) if it's necessary.

Pardon my ignorance on the A320 flight systems, just curious.
-Dan Everette

Offline KSYR-pjr

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jet blue landing at LAX
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2005, 11:45:25 AM »
Quote
Brings up a question I have. Granted the captain has the final say, but what would the typical protocol/procedure be with the engines in a situation like this? Would you shut them down immediately once you were committed to the landing to minimize possibility of injesting anything coming off the nose gear assembly?


I am only a GA pilot, so take this for what its worth:  In the GA world, we are constantly drilled with the concept that once an emergency occurs, the aircraft is owned by the insurance company.  In other words, do what needs to be done to save the people; do not do something silly to endanger the people by attempting to save the aircraft.

There have been more than a few GA landing-gear-failed-to-fully-deploy-and-lock emergencies where the pilot attempted to save the engine/prop by shutting down the engine on short final.  In some of these cases, the pilot lost airspeed awareness and stalled the aircraft, nosing in from 100 feet or so.  These accidents are tragic but avoidable.

In the case of the Airbus, I would speculate that there was no attempt to shut down the engines on short final.
Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY

Offline KSYR-pjr

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jet blue landing at LAX
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2005, 11:54:17 AM »
There were some excellent observations brought up by someone in the aviation newsgroups.  

Why didn't the LAX airport rescue squad immediately jack up the Airbus nosewheel before letting anyone exit the front door and mill around the nose of the aircraft?   Supposedly there were a handful of people wandering underneath the nose of the aircraft as passengers exited the aircraft.

Also, why didn't the same group have a few stair vehicles available to utilize more than just the one front door after the aircraft came to a stop?

(not my observations, but they seem very astute to me)
Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY

Offline deverette

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jet blue landing at LAX
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2005, 12:39:58 PM »
Quote
I am only a GA pilot, so take this for what its worth: In the GA world, we are constantly drilled with the concept that once an emergency occurs, the aircraft is owned by the insurance company. In other words, do what needs to be done to save the people; do not do something silly to endanger the people by attempting to save the aircraft.


Peter, don't get me wrong, I fully appreciate and understand the Captain's (PIC's) responsibilities. The basis for my question can be said that taking steps to keep the airplane intact is inextricably linked to passenger safety. I wasn't thinking about shutting the engines down on short final, since you're still not committed to the landing (he could have even put the mains on the ground, and still aborted the landing). I was thinking once the Captain decided "this is it", then kill them. Again, I'm not familiar with the A320 systems or the peripheral consequences of any of the things I mentioned. I'm just trying to get some insight on the actual decision-making process that is going on.

Quote
Why didn't the LAX airport rescue squad immediately jack up the Airbus nosewheel before letting anyone exit the front door and mill around the nose of the aircraft? Supposedly there were a handful of people wandering underneath the nose of the aircraft as passengers exited the aircraft.


When I saw a bunch of people walking around the nose gear assembly of the plane when it was down, I thought the same thing. I was saying to the TV "Uhhh, DUH, that support which is holding that multi-ton airplane above your head has just been subjected to incredible stresses it wasn't specifically designed for..." Guess those guys haven't spent any time around/near/working with suspended loads..

Ahh well..
-Dan Everette

Offline frantzy

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jet blue landing at LAX
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2005, 01:18:33 PM »
Quote from: PHL_Approach
Brian, this is not a forum where we start arguments or flaming etc, keep it either on A.net or the Vatsim.net forums.


...which to me is the BEST aspect of the LiveATC forums.  It's such a pleasant change from so many forums these days.

Mike

Offline tyketto

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jet blue landing at LAX
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2005, 01:26:27 PM »
Quote from: frantzy
Quote from: PHL_Approach
Brian, this is not a forum where we start arguments or flaming etc, keep it either on A.net or the Vatsim.net forums.


...which to me is the BEST aspect of the LiveATC forums.  It's such a pleasant change from so many forums these days.

Mike


And to be honest, it doesn't even belong on the VATSIM forums. Leave the advocacy stuff to A.net alone..

BL.

Offline PHL Approach

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« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2005, 03:01:45 PM »
I agree with you Brad, but Brian seams to throw stuff like that out on the Vatsim forums "often". There is no stopping that on that forum anyway, it will continue.  :x

Offline MSN ATC

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jet blue landing at LAX
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2005, 05:07:42 PM »
Did anybody else notice that while the tires were burning off, the flames were much more pronounced whenever the nose gear was going over one of the center stripes? Flames were not nearly as bad on raw pavement.  Watch the video. Wonder what would cause that.
Madison, Wisconsin ATC

Offline bschott

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jet blue landing at LAX
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2005, 08:16:59 PM »
(not commenting on the flames and backhanded comments)

Personally I think the pilot did well, should get a bonus or something for that landing.  seems the liveatc server died during this event so the audio wasn't recorded.  Kinda sad, would have been great to have a record of that.

Offline tyketto

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jet blue landing at LAX
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2005, 08:37:23 PM »
Quote from: bschott
(not commenting on the flames and backhanded comments)

Personally I think the pilot did well, should get a bonus or something for that landing.  seems the liveatc server died during this event so the audio wasn't recorded.  Kinda sad, would have been great to have a record of that.


Also, take into account that the feed you're getting is based way out near Ontario! I personally know the guy that set up the feed. He's mainly covering Ontario, but he's high enough that he can cover Harbour, Manhattan, Stadium, Coast, Banning, Downey, Zuma, and part of Center. We'd be lucky if he did get LAX Tower. Unfortunately, he's just too far out. Hoepfully someone closer (like at In-n-Out) will set up a feed for LA Tower.

BL.

Offline bschott

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jet blue landing at LAX
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2005, 08:54:15 PM »
Quote from: tyketto
Quote from: bschott
(not commenting on the flames and backhanded comments)

Personally I think the pilot did well, should get a bonus or something for that landing.  seems the liveatc server died during this event so the audio wasn't recorded.  Kinda sad, would have been great to have a record of that.


Also, take into account that the feed you're getting is based way out near Ontario! I personally know the guy that set up the feed. He's mainly covering Ontario, but he's high enough that he can cover Harbour, Manhattan, Stadium, Coast, Banning, Downey, Zuma, and part of Center. We'd be lucky if he did get LAX Tower. Unfortunately, he's just too far out. Hoepfully someone closer (like at In-n-Out) will set up a feed for LA Tower.

BL.


That wasn't a flame at all directed to the guy. I said it seemed like the LiveATC server died from the traffic hitting it....it got swamped.  Nothing against anyone...just high traffic.  Please (and this isn't a putdown) look at my post first...it was just mentioning how it was sad that the server went down and we lost the recording. That's it.

Offline tyketto

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jet blue landing at LAX
« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2005, 01:16:21 AM »
Quote from: bschott
That wasn't a flame at all directed to the guy. I said it seemed like the LiveATC server died from the traffic hitting it....it got swamped.  Nothing against anyone...just high traffic.  Please (and this isn't a putdown) look at my post first...it was just mentioning how it was sad that the server went down and we lost the recording. That's it.


Oh, by all means, please don't get me wrong! I know you weren't intending your post to be flaming.. If I came off that way, I apologise. I just wish that we had a feed that was closer to LAX tower. the SoCAL feed is great, don't get me wrong, but in this case, we were missing a lot when the emergency happened, because the feed was, like you said, way swamped that it tanked, and that the source of the feed was so far out.

We'll just have to get a feed down there.

BL.

Offline glonch

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jet blue landing at LAX
« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2005, 08:57:59 AM »
Quote from: pweeden
Did anybody else notice that while the tires were burning off, the flames were much more pronounced whenever the nose gear was going over one of the center stripes? Flames were not nearly as bad on raw pavement.  Watch the video. Wonder what would cause that.


I saw that too.  Could it be when the pilot was applying (pumping) the brakes, hydraulic fluid was being pumped out and flaming up?

Offline KSYR-pjr

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jet blue landing at LAX
« Reply #41 on: September 23, 2005, 09:20:28 AM »
Quote from: glonch
I saw that too.  Could it be when the pilot was applying (pumping) the brakes, hydraulic fluid was being pumped out and flaming up?


Too coincidental.  :)
Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY

Offline MSN ATC

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« Reply #42 on: September 23, 2005, 10:13:02 AM »
It's gotta be something in the striping paint that made it flare up.  Maybe it's time for a $10M NTSB study on Runway Materials & Fire Safety.

ATC Content: Anybody ever figure out why this site melted down at the height of the drama?
Madison, Wisconsin ATC

Offline sam_nz

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« Reply #43 on: September 23, 2005, 10:55:03 AM »
Server overload?
E&OE, I'm female, I'm learning, Bear with me.

Offline tyketto

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« Reply #44 on: September 23, 2005, 12:35:17 PM »
Quote from: glonch
Quote from: pweeden
Did anybody else notice that while the tires were burning off, the flames were much more pronounced whenever the nose gear was going over one of the center stripes? Flames were not nearly as bad on raw pavement.  Watch the video. Wonder what would cause that.


I saw that too.  Could it be when the pilot was applying (pumping) the brakes, hydraulic fluid was being pumped out and flaming up?


It had to do with the chemicals used in the paint for the runway centerline.  Whatever was used in it certainly flammable. With this in mind, the Airport Authorities may have to investigate why it happened, and possibly go with another type of paint. That will be a bear, if they need to repaint every runway centerline/line for every field. It's that serious.

BL.

Offline 71sbeetle

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jet blue landing at LAX
« Reply #45 on: September 23, 2005, 12:41:22 PM »
you do also know that these wheels are made out of magnesium right, wich is highly flammable

Offline tyketto

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« Reply #46 on: September 23, 2005, 02:42:20 PM »
Quote from: 71sbeetle
you do also know that these wheels are made out of magnesium right, wich is highly flammable


Actually, I think you're right about this. After looking at the video again, that does not look like the type of 'normal' fire you'd see. It's almost like what you'd see during the lighting of a match, just on a bigger scale. I don't think it's the centerline now..

BL.

Offline MSN ATC

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« Reply #47 on: September 23, 2005, 03:05:09 PM »
Quote from: tyketto
I don't think it's the centerline now.


But the fire is definitely stronger when the gear is on the centerline paint.
Madison, Wisconsin ATC

Offline 71sbeetle

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jet blue landing at LAX
« Reply #48 on: September 23, 2005, 03:10:29 PM »
Quote from: KSYR-pjr


.

In the case of the Airbus, I would speculate that there was no attempt to shut down the engines on short final.


also in teh part 121 world, price of parts is MUCH lower than price of a life of a passenger, on a prop airplane, you would also get more damages on prop strike that wont happen here, unless the nose gear had collapsed and even then

Offline 71sbeetle

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jet blue landing at LAX
« Reply #49 on: September 23, 2005, 03:13:04 PM »
Quote from: pweeden
Quote from: tyketto
I don't think it's the centerline now.


But the fire is definitely stronger when the gear is on the centerline paint.


true, looks like the paint creates a higher friction !