LiveATC Discussion Forums
Air Traffic Monitoring => Listener Forum => Topic started by: SweedChef on July 16, 2008, 07:25:07 AM
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Thanks for whoever is feeding the IAD feed, both Tower and Approch so far sound 5x5 for controllers and 4x5 at worst for most aircraft.
I'm from NS, Canada but my sister is in Leesburg, VA. I would sit on her deck with the scanner and watch planes for hours, as long as they were landing on the 19s.
I was going to look into maybe setting her place up for a feed. Saves me the trouble :)
Jamie
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You are welcome. The feed is mine. It seems like it has been a popular feed since it came up earlier this week.
I am about 10 miles south of IAD. The scanner is a RS Pro-2052 and the antenna is a custom-made J Pole up 45'.
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Nice feed Terry. Which App freq's do you have programmed. Seems like it's 120.45/124.65/118.675. Request if possible too add dep. freq's 126.65 and 125.05 to the mix. My request for the ultimate feed would be APP-126.1/120.45/124.65/118.675 AND 125.8 w/DEP-126.65 and 125.05. Give the whole picture in my opinion.
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Probably too many frequencies...it's a bit busy as it is now. But it's Terry's call.
Dave
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Right now I have the following programmed:
120.1/128.425 - Dulles Tower
124.65/120.45/126.1 - Class B Approach/Departure
I am willing to add more but don't want to degrade the coverage as it stands now. I agree that adding the requested approach and departure frequencies definitely will provide a greater radius of coverage and more complete picture of the traffic. I can try it for a while and see what the consensus is.
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Terry,
What's the main approach and departure freq's around IAD? I think adding those plus the twr freq would be awesome.
I heard on Twr freq, that IAD as 3 N-S runways, I was there in Sept, and they just had two rwys working at the time when did the third one come online?
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My opinion: it is perfect the way it is. The only Freq seems to be missing is the final vector which is not really interesting on a one stream feed. Dave is right....would be too cluttered. There's a nice mix as it is between IAD approach, Tower and VFR traffic crossing Bravo space going to airports like Frederick and Leesberg Exec.
I got playing around with Google Earth last night and plotted the final vectors of the 19s in relation to my sister's place. ( I was thankfully wrong, she's in Ashburn) As you can see, I can't wait to go visit. I'll spend my afternoons on the deck with a beer and a scanner (they land on the 1s in the mornings). The highlight of the afternoon is the Virgin Atlantic and the Shamrock that land around 2:30.
Great feed Terry, I like it the way it is.
Jamie
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All I am saying is that there are many aspects of a feed being placed into the system. There are some of us contrary to the belief of others that would also like to listen to both APP/DEP as well as tower. It seems these days there is a push to just have tower listed as a major airport feed. We did not have a problem earlier in the beginning days of Liveatc to list all aspects. As this forum is a a free speech forum being that we live in America I am speaking my opinions here. I dont know about others but this listener is willing to put up with clutter and listen to all of these. I really think that there are a certain few here that have too much of a controlling issue to limit what is put into an upcoming feed. If there is a consensus of what listeners want to listen to then so be it and it should not be decided by a few members in an hierarchy. We should take polls to see what listeners want and not a socialistic system.
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The problem with clutter on one feed: You don't get to listen to everything. I like your theory, but it doesn't work when you got one stream broadcasting 10 different frequencies.
In a perfect "LiveATC" world, Tower would wait for APP to finish his command before broadcasting his. In any busy airspace, you've got 5/10 frequencies broadcasting at the same time.
As LIVE ATC grows, maybe someone else will set-up a feed with different frequencies. Like everything, it will take time. (I'll be in Washington next year....may set one up myself.)
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"I heard on Twr freq, that IAD as 3 N-S runways, I was there in Sept, and they just had two rwys working at the time when did the third one come online?"
The 3rd N/S runway (19R/1L) is still under construction and scheduled to open in the fall. They renumbered the old 19R/1L to 19C/1C early to avoid confusion, as aircraft were lining up on the under construction runway.
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If there is a consensus of what listeners want to listen to then so be it and it should not be decided by a few members in an hierarchy. We should take polls to see what listeners want and not a socialistic system.
As you really know, the bottom line is that a volunteer feeder will do whatever s/he wants to do. Sometimes feeders will ask for opinions, but based on what I have seen here most times not. It's not like someone shows up at the middle of the night and leaves a threat on the feeders' doorsteps to "encourage" them to side with the opinions of the conspiracy. When the feeder asks for opinions, both sides come out - those who prefer less and those who prefer more. I am not sure where you are getting that a "certain few" are controlling the many feed sites, as from my vantage point it just ain't that way.
My vote is also for less frequencies on a feed, but I hope that doesn't make me part of this vast, less-frequency, socialistic conspiracy. The reason I prefer less is simple: If there is an interesting event, say an emergency or a bad piloting action, there is a much better chance that the feed site will catch the majority of the event. Too many frequencies being scanned and the odds are low that listeners will ever hear more than one exchange. Listening to a super-crammed feed hearing nothing but heading and altitude assignments without something unique gets really boring really fast, at least for me.
In my opinion a better option for those who prefer more frequencies is to donate to the cause and help to create a super feed, or one that offers many frequencies spread out over multiple feeds. Then those who prefer more can have multiple feed streams running at once to get that big picture of the airspace. And if there is an event of some type, it can be woven into a single audio clip that can then be uploaded here.
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Well so called events also happen in the aviation community especially on APP,DEP,and towers at times . So the so called emergency event can happen not only on tower. I dont think that having 5-7 freq's is a crammed feed. I just find it a bit hard to believe that the majority if not all the feeds that have been coming on only have tower and maybe 1 freq on it. The feed do have to be approved by site managers do they not ? I do believe there is a certain influence to feeder's to get approved to put up their sites. My 2 cents. unfortunately there are many here that cannot afford to contribute equipment to the cause and should not be penalized or pestered if they speak their mind here on their opinions. Or why dont the feedrer just alternate at times as well what is fed. Let's not be bashfull and try that out and see what happens. Unless there are objections to this as well.
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The feed do have to be approved by site managers do they not ? I do believe there is a certain influence to feeder's to get approved to put up their sites. My 2 cents.
Site managers? The only site manager I am aware of is the site founder, Dave. No one else. From what I have seen Dave is very happy to take any volunteer's feed, any time, assuming the quality (relatively strong reception, both sides of the exchange, etc) is good and the up-time is more than just a few days a week. AFAIK there are no other caveats.
I do agree with you that approach and departure should definitely be included in feeds, however the challenge with the larger airports is that there are many departure and approach frequencies. Trying to cover them all with only one feed makes for an overcrowded feed, given the heavy volume of traffic. IMO five to seven busy approach/departure sectors is way too crowded of a feed and "so called events" will not be able to be followed by listeners. But again, this is only my opinion and not some conspiracy. Really.
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Personally, I like to have more frequencies covered than less. When I was running the scanner for myself I had virtually all of the frequencies in the Potomac TRACON scanning and I found that it made for interesting listening. Sure, there were things I missed but since I am literally 1 NM from the Barin1 arrival path I always knew what was coming over my house ! The IAD Class B space is obviously very complex . Given that there can be lots of interesting traffic in and around here it may be worth trading the constant stream of tower traffic and Class B clearances for it. Considering that my coverage is actually quite good even with aircraft 50-100 miles out isn't worth a shot to see whether this will be of interest ?
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As a self appointed charter member of the "Vast Less Frequency Socialist Conspiracy", aka the V.L.F.S.C., I must protest the suggestion to add more freqiencies to the feed. Trying to listen to Tower and all the approach frequencies on one radio at the same time would just be a big mess. As a possible solution is there any chance that maybe you could rotate through various configurations, like say monitor the Tower frequencies for a week, then switch to the departure frequencies for a week, then the arrival sectors for a week, etc. ? I realize this is a time consuming option for the feed provider, so offered just as a suggestion only.
Please join the V.L.F.S.C. today and help stamp out frequency congestion. Less is better.
I'm DJ and I approve this message.
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Hi Darryl !!!!!!!! Been a while. I just find it hard to understand why tower's are only listed ??? Nice comeback though. MIA
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My 2 cents......
I'm ALL for letting the "listeners" have some input into which freq. get monitored. It doesn't mean you have to comply with every request, but switching things around is a great way to find just the right mix. It also keeps more people interested. People make requests, and I try and accommodate them.
Now true, ultimately this feed is my responsibility, but I'm providing the KLAX feed FOR the ATC/airline enthusiasts out there in cyberspace. For THEIR enjoyment.
Not mine.
I HAVE another scanner, and I listen when, and to which frequencies I choose.
The cost for my feed has been minimal, and the upkeep is the same. I am sure that it is different for those of you that provide more then one feed. But at this point, feel free to PM with your opinions, requests or comments.
Rob
KLAX
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The feeder for the Various Center Frequencies for Cleveland has always been nice enough to try/comply with my request's for frequency changes as well as the feeder for PIT and the Other CLE ARTCC feed.
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Hi Darryl !!!!!!!! Been a while. I just find it hard to understand why tower's are only listed ??? Nice comeback though. MIA
There are some airports where Tower (and other airport-local frequencies) are the only ones that are easy to pick up. Not all TRACONs or Approach Control facilities transmit from a given airport - the transmitters could be anywhere. It is simply not true that we only list Tower. Sweeping generalizations like that are not helpful.
I provide guidance to people who volunteer a feed and are unsure which frequencies to feed. I almost always initially suggest every possible frequency that might be received clearly *and* be interesting to the audience. The reason for this is simple. There is no hard and fast rule for how many frequencies to put on a feed - every piece of airspace is different. Not all are as busy as IAD, for example, so a few frequencies might be fine and not cause us to miss much activity.
Everyone here is free to comment. Everyone here is also free to donate to help grow our feeds. I don't recall any cases where anyone is discouraged from making these kinds of suggestions. But there is a big difference between making a suggestion and having it acted on immediately (or at all). I personally take all suggestions to heart, and judge them on their merits, not by who makes the suggestion. I have been doing this for a while now, and like to believe that I have a total set of skills (aviation and radio communications - combined with many years of listening) that make me the right person for judging the merits of suggestions. When I sinply don't know I admit it and rely on the suggestions of folks with knowledge of local airspace, etc.
Just to be clear - there is still largely a volunteer site. I am not comfortable dictating to feeders what they should do. And I won't allow them to be harassed by listeners to do something they may not want to do. This is what the forums are for - constructive suggestions ae always welcome. But some of the criticisms I have seen posted here about feeds are sometimes pretty inappropriate. I like to think most of us in this community are mature enough to understand that this is not life or death - nobody is going to die if we're missing one or two frequencies that might be interesting.
Everyone needs to take a step back and look at the bigger picture - this is a large, dynamic, ongoing project. And it will take time to continue building it. I know this is sometimes hard to take in a world where people increasingly depend on instant gratification. :-)
-Dave
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Did not say I wanted instant gratification. Just speaking my free speech right. The alternating idea is a good come to the middle compromise in my mind. I rest my debate here and now on this subject.
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Did not say I wanted instant gratification. Just speaking my free speech right. The alternating idea is a good come to the middle compromise in my mind. I rest my debate here and now on this subject.
The alternating idea is OK but a bit flawed in a couple of ways. People would like to know how to find particular things, hence the listings. It's very helpful if they are as accurate as possible. With alternating the feed listing is seldom accurate. And the feeder has to do work. Every day. Or every week. I wouldn't want to have that burden if I was a feeder (hey wait, I am a feeder).
Dave
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Correct me if I am wrong but programming 2 additional frequencies in a scanner is not that much of a burden. I remember this being done by a feeder in the middle of my listening and taking no more than 30 seconds unless there is this time consuming process that takes or 3 hours. Amazing how I rested my case and decided to not talk about this anymore and leave it be that someone had to continue and have the last word. My last transmission. If anyone replies to this post it shows the EGO's that run this site and that they are the rulers of the site. Amazing how another suggestion will be shot down and not happen(alternating). It will probably happen if someone of high authority or cliqish folks would suggest it. I'll bet money on this or if I suggest that if the feed does have these additional frequencies added Dave you can delete my account on this site. Add them and you can deletre my account.
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Amazing how I rested my case and decided to not talk about this anymore and leave it be that someone had to continue and have the last word. My last transmission.
So you get to state your opinion and then demand when this topic ends?
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Correct me if I am wrong but programming 2 additional frequencies in a scanner is not that much of a burden. I remember this being done by a feeder in the middle of my listening and taking no more than 30 seconds unless there is this time consuming process that takes or 3 hours. Amazing how I rested my case and decided to not talk about this anymore and leave it be that someone had to continue and have the last word. My last transmission. If anyone replies to this post it shows the EGO's that run this site and that they are the rulers of the site. Amazing how another suggestion will be shot down and not happen(alternating). It will probably happen if someone of high authority or cliqish folks would suggest it. I'll bet money on this or if I suggest that if the feed does have these additional frequencies added Dave you can delete my account on this site. Add them and you can deletre my account.
We're having a dialogue here. It's more than programming the additional frequencies - every day or week the feeder has to remember to lock out certain frequencies and unlock others. I just see that as a hassle. If a feeder really wants to do that, I won't stop him. As long as we can list the feed accurately. As far as how I like things to work, I would rather know what is on a given feed (mountpoint).
I don't understand the hostile attitude. You said you were exercising your right to free speech. So am I. And since I do put endless hours (and money) into developing the site I do feel I have the right to do so, as does anyone here, including yourself.
I was speaking in general terms and not attacking you, so it must be something else you are upset about. I just don't understand the take-my-ball-and-go-home attitude. We're all adults here, right?
-Dave
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Did not say I wanted instant gratification. Just speaking my free speech right. The alternating idea is a good come to the middle compromise in my mind. /quote]
Great idea! I'm all for it....but all of a sudden we ended up on this grand 'political' thread ... which started with me thanking the IAD provider...and transformed into this 'free for all' discussion on how no suggestions are taken into consideration. Which in my (now one year old) opinion is totally ludicrous! From what I can telll...the only people in control are the feeders themselves. And living in that area, they should know best on what is "listenable" and what could be conceived as "clutter". I would certainly take Dave;s advise into consideration......but I think I would know what I can pick up at my location.
Here's an example: I live in the Annapolis Valley of Nova Scotia. I am in a location where I can receive most Pilot communication with Halifax Approach and sometimes Tower. As well as some Trans-Atlanic flights. (No controllers). If I decided to feed my scanner to this site .... You would most certainly hear our local Fire Departments as
a) I only own one scanner and ...
b) my local Fire frequencies interst ME...as a feeder.
And I'm almost certain (correct me if I'm wrong Dave) that I would be allowed to do that.
Again....just ranted cause this BS ended up on my tread thanking Terry
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First and foremost I don't take offense at any suggestions on what should be carried on the feed. I don't think anyone will question the fact that the airspace around IAD is very complex. Coming up with the right mix of frequencies that provides for interesting listening without too many compromises, however, is not easy.
Further complicating matters is that the Potomac TRACON transmitters are scattered around the area and my ability to receive some of the desired frequencies varies. So quality of service is another issue to deal with.
To set the record straight when I corresponded with Dave and others regarding the feed I was not presented with a set of rules about what frequencies to carry or not carry. The fact is they asked me what I was covering. Since that time the only discussion regarding the feed has been on this forum. So, I don't get the sense that there is some bureaucratic set of edicts that govern the feeds. Certainly, nothing in this discussion is suggestive of that either from my point of view.
In my opinion on a site like this where there are many listeners cycling through a certain degree of consistency should have some weight in deciding what is practical for a feed. While technically alternating frequency coverage is not a big deal it could cause confusion for those who come upon the site casually. So in this respect I agree with Dave.
As far as covering more frequencies, I am not opposed. I think the immediate suggestions from this discussion are good ones. The feed is barely a week old, however, so my inclination is to introduce change slowly. I'm interested in other opinions and then willing to make some decisions.
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The best solution for a hub airport is having multiple streams, but that requires more scanners, more soundcards and eats deeper into the feeder's bandwidth. Considering that the feeders are volunteers, we can not force expenses on them. As volunteers, the operators of the feeds are the arbiters of which frequencies to put on the scanner, with Dave making the final decision to feed it from LiveATC.net.
I thank all the volunteer feeders that make this site worth visiting. (And Dave + staff.)
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Hi Terry,
I'm interested in other opinions and then willing to make some decisions.
When listening to very busy/congested airspace, such as what is found in the IAD area (I'm familiar with it), my personal preference is to concentrate on one "area" like Tower or Departure or Approach, not necessarily one over the other but not all at the same time. This way you can follow what is going on in at least that one area, as opposed to multiple busy sectors that just end up blocking each other out.
Although not my preference the most popular feeds seem to be Tower, as far as traffic volume goes, your feed would be excellent if you just monitored the two Tower frequencies only.
Based on traffic volume, other configurations that would work on their own:
1) Departure: 126.650, 125.050
2) Approach (initial): 126.100, 124.650, 120.450
3) Approach (final): 125.800, 134.200, 128.800 (status?)
4) Approach (high): 125.650, 118.675, 123.825
My personal preference would be option 2) the initial arrival sectors, option 4) would be good too but I doubt there would be much interest. Combining any of the above options would be too busy. Of course this is just my own opinion and I fully respect that others might not have the same preferences.
These are just "suggestions" and I'm certainly not "expecting" or "demanding" anything. It's refreshing that we can have an intelligent discussion on frequency selection here in this "discussion" forum. Thank you for your excellent response and nice job on the feed setup !
DJ
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Based on traffic volume, other configurations that would work on their own:
1) Departure: 126.650, 125.050
2) Approach (initial): 126.100, 124.650, 120.450
3) Approach (final): 125.800, 134.200, 128.800 (status?)
4) Approach (high): 125.650, 118.675, 123.825
My personal preference would be option 2) the initial arrival sectors, option 4
So, right now your option 2 (plus the two tower frequencies) is being scanned.