ATC in JFK

[lostmoon]

Good morning and Happy Friday, [EDIT: Sorry about that poll thingy. No idea what that is. Disregard it please]

Relatively new here, and have throughly enjoyed the various ATCs throughout the globe.

I have a question regarding ATC and how they advance through the system. Does one start doing ground/delivery, then slowly move up to tower, then subsequently to APP, DEP and eventually CTR?

Sorry if this is potentially a stupid question. I am just thinking in terms of what occurs in VATSIM.


Thanks,
Tom
KJFK


P.S. I think the very colorful guy on JFK GND who is subject to many posts on the forum is no longer on GND? I heard someone very similiary to him on the DEL position, that is what inspired my inquiry above. Can ATCs also be demoted from let's say, TWR, to something else?

[nitroboie]

All of the controllers rotate, they don't just work tower, ground, delivery. They often work all three within their shift.

[lostmoon]

thanks.

[PHL Approach]

I'll go a little more indepth. You have terminal positions which at an "Up and Down" facility unlike Kennedy but like Philly have the possibility of working Delivery, Ground, Local, Approach and Departure. At a facility such as Kennedy, Los Angeles or Boston. They are not up and down facilities and just have cab positions as the Tracon is generally 10's of miles away from the Tower. So they can only work Delivery, Ground and Locals or other non control positions. Generally progression in Up and Downs is Non control positions such as Approach Data (delivering printed strips to the Feeder positions), Flight Data/ Clearance Delivery, then Ground control positions, Local control positions and in some facilities... I wont say all, start you on Departure then you can start working on Approach positions. All in all it may take a certain amount of hours on a position before an instructor may sign you off.

You have the other set of progression, but in a different environment... Enroute. You would normally start in the classroom. Start testing on maps, learn the airspace and then move out to the floor to start working on A-Side's (Associate) in your Area/ Specialty. This depends on the complexity of operations in your Area or even time it takes to receive instruction before you can move up. After you get certed on a all sectors in your area for A-Side you move onto D-Side's sometimes referred to as H-Sides (Data or Handoff). After you cert on the D-Sides in your area you can then move up to the fun stuff when you get to actually start communicating with pilots... Known as the R-Side (Radar), this is the last major jump in certifications. After you end up certing on all A-Sides, D/H-Sides and R-Sides in your Area. You now have a good chunk of expertise in your area and you are tagged a CPC (Certified Professional Controller) or what it use to be called FPL (Full Performance Level)

Im very tired so forgive me for any mistakes. Im sure our RW enroute guys could make some corrections on my enroute stuff if I slipped.

[davolijj]

...I'm sure our RW enroute guys could make some corrections on my enroute stuff if I slipped...

Nice summation Ed, but just to clarify on the EnRoute progression:

An Area/Specialty usually consists of 6-8 sectors all of which have R and D positions.  The different positions are A-side (Assistant), D-side (Radar Associate), R-side (Radar controller), and H-side (Handoff/Tracker).  In URET facilities there is only 1 or 2 A-side positions for the whole area so certifying on them takes only a couple of days or 2 weeks tops.  After certifying on the A-sides developmentals go back into the classroom where they receive classroom and labratory instruction on the Radar Associate or D-side position.  They then receive OJT instruction on each D position in the area until they've certified on them all.  Then it's back up to the classroom again this time for R class before they go back down to the floor for OJTI working radar.  When they certify on all radar positions they become CPCs.  The H-side is a position that CPCs work on busy sectors and it's not a part of the developmental progression.

[blizzard242]

I think he was asking what steps of atc a flight goes through, not how an atc gets certified. I beleve that it is ground, tower dep, app. center.

[digger]

Nah. Read it again...

I have a question regarding ATC and how they advance through the system. Does one start doing ground/delivery, then slowly move up to tower, then subsequently to APP, DEP and eventually CTR?

[PaulRichardson82]

Follow-up question:

Do controllers get promoted to from smaller airports to the bigger and busier ones?

[w0x0f]

Follow-up question:

Do controllers get promoted to from smaller airports to the bigger and busier ones?

That's the way it's supposed to work, but the FAA finds itself in these hiring crunches every 25 years or so.  It started 8/3/1981 and now all the controllers that were hired after the PATCO firing are now becoming eligible to retire.  The new hires were thrown into busy facilities back then because those were the most critical to the aviation system.  It will happen all over again in the next few years.  The agency's imposed work rules upon current controllers will most likely hasten the retirements.

w0x0f

[IndyTower]

Follow-up question:

Do controllers get promoted to from smaller airports to the bigger and busier ones?

That's the way it's supposed to work, but the FAA finds itself in these hiring crunches every 25 years or so.  It started 8/3/1981 and now all the controllers that were hired after the PATCO firing are now becoming eligible to retire.  The new hires were thrown into busy facilities back then because those were the most critical to the aviation system.  It will happen all over again in the next few years.  The agency's imposed work rules upon current controllers will most likely hasten the retirements.

w0x0f

...and this is what some of us on here are getting ourselves into. 

[w0x0f]

...and this is what some of us on here are getting ourselves into. 

Good luck.

w0x0f

[Scrapper]

Hi all... sorry no posts in a while... I was on vacation...

In Canada, things are a little different (isn't this true of just about everything?
Nav Canada will hire people into one of three jobs... VFR controller, IFR controller, and FSS. Flight Service Specialist is not actually a controller, but still essential part of flying, as they provide weather reports, work at uncontrolled airports, help pilots find information, pass on clearances, etc. VFR controllers control based on visual seperation, and are not qualified to provide IFR seperation... they work in towers and provide visual seperation for aircraft in flight within the airport control zone (5 or 7 miles depending on the airport... so fairly small...) and all the traffic on the ground... this is broken down to Tower, working the stuff in flight and all active runways, ground which controls, well, quite frankly, everything else on the ground (sometimes at busy airports there is also apron, self explanatory) and finally clearance delivery which is where you obtain your flight clearance... so in actual fact, it starts in reverse... a plane would contact delivery, then apron to push, eventually ground for taxi instructions, and tower prior to entering an active runway and for take off... so far I believe this is exactly the same as in the states... here's where it changes for us though... once you take off and contact departure, whereas some airports in the states have their own approach and departure control, and other places have seperate terminal radar control sites dedicated to the terminal area, our terminal control units are ALL located at the centres... (what you would call artcc)... so if you become an IFR controller instead of a VFR controller, then after school, you would start working one of the sectors in that centre (ie. montreal centre has high sectors, low sectors, but also, montreal TCU, and Captals TCU (which controls traffic landing in Quebec city, and traffic landing in ottawa... obviously not done by the same person though hehe!)

So an IFR controller can expect to do some radar controlling, some non-radar controlling in areas with no radar coverage and eventually with a lot of experience, TCUs... but in Canada, you're either trained as an IFR controller or a VFR controller... but not both at once... so a VFR controller gets assigned to an airport (sometimes a less busy one, but not always...) but an IFR controller goes to a centre (all are equally busy as far as NAV CANADA is concerned...) I guess that's the only major difference between the two countries... all IFR control (including terminal control is done at one of the seven centres (gander, moncton, montreal, toronto, winnipeg, edmonton or vancouver). some are not even within the airport grounds (like in montreal) whereas others are right next to the tower (ie. toronto, but even there, a guy working in the centre, wouldn't ever work in the tower, and vice versa... different type of control... but the guys in the tower rotate through all the positions in the tower, and a guy in the centre would normally also rotate through various positions within his sector, but also every so often would be assigned into another sector as well...)

hope i didn't confuse everyone...

anyone want to talk military? hehe... just kidding...

[Pygmie]

VFR controllers control based on visual seperation, and are not qualified to provide IFR seperation...

That's not quite true. . .  There are many towers in Canada that are qualified to provide IFR separation within a certain radius around the airport.

[dontsayuhoh]

Well some towers are able to provide initial IFR separation (tower release) but I wouldnt really consider that ifr separation in the zone as its only off the ground.  And certainly not many towers in canada.

[Pygmie]

It's not just initial IFR separation they can provide.  The towers I work with can provide arrival-arrival, arrival-departure, as well as departure-departure (initial) IFR separation.  They have to be qualified in doing it, and as such are IFR certified within a certain area.  They are using IFR separation standards, based on IFR procedures and regulations, so I don't see how you wouldn't consider that IFR separation.  I mean, if they aren't providing me with IFR separation when departure release is in place, just what the hell are they giving me?

Also, YVR and YYZ towers are classified as fully IFR towers, others are simply IFR certified for ADR (of which I can think of at least 10), so there are a few.

[SkyViking]

Further to the above, Canadian IFR controllers are on a higher pay scale than their VFR counterparts.  One may elect to switch when vacancy permits however further training and certification would be required to ammend one's licence.  As for the difference in $$, if you don't mind working in a dark windowless room, verses a bright open tower the starting pays is about 15K more.  Most openings are for IFR.

[Pygmie]

That's not quite true.  YVR and YYZ tower controllers are on the same pay scale as the ACC controllers.

[dontsayuhoh]

We can do departure/departure which is when both are on the ground.  In departure vs departure we are providing the initial IFR separation as in Sec. 3 (successive Visual IFR deps.) or as in Sec. 4 which is actual IFR separation.  all of these methods require proper training and agreements but do not require an IFR endorsement.

I understand where you are coming from with Arrival/Departure because that is basically just Initial departure seperation again.  We are dealing with the departure more then the arrival.  If the arrival is more then 2 miles from the threshold then good.. if not its our fault. 

But define Arrival/ Arrival for me... In what instance do you know of a tower in Canada (other then yyz/yvr of course which have IFR endorsements)  where the tower is providing IFR sep between arrival/ arrival

[Pygmie]

Yah, ok, I guess arrival-arrival separation isn't really being provided IFR, once they take control I guess they are more just running them visually.  You've got me there.

[Acey]

On a related note, anyone familiar with the arrival box system and "final approach area" for YYZ arrivals?

[dontsayuhoh]

sure, what would you like to know?

[Acey]

If anyone is familiar with the various altitudes YYZ arrivals are assigned that would be great.  I think centre hands them off at 11 thousand and then they are brought down to 8,000 shortly after that.  Additionally, why is 06R-24L only used briefly during peak times? You'll hear arrival saying "6L unavailable due to 10 departures out there, plan runway 05".  Why not use 6R so some of those T2 arrivals don't have a 2 mile taxi?

[Pygmie]

This is just an educated guess, anyone feel free to correct me, but I'm going to go ahead and say the reason they don't use 6R if they have 10 departures waiting to go on 6L is because it would slow down the departure rate too much.

6L&R are too close togather to have simultaneous landings and takeoffs, and so there would be a period there when the tower cannot depart aircraft off 6L until the traffic on approach to 6R had landed.  I'm guessing this would just slow things down too much for the departures if it's not absolutely necessary to run arrivals on both 5 and 6R.

Of course when there is a large arrivals flow, they'll need both runways to get everyone down, but in the slower times I can see them restricting arrivals to 05 so they can launch departures off 6L at will.

[Acey]

Thanks for the reply.