Delta 140 @ JFK on Tower 1, Dec. 3, 0130-2000 Zulu

[AnchorageCTIStudent]

Dunno if anyone else heard this, but it totally floored me.

About 3 minutes in a Delta captain accuses local of not having separation between himself and the preceeding departure.

==========

Local: Delta 140 heavy, contact New York Departure.

Delta 140: Delta 140 roger that, I think our spacing was a little close to the 75 infront of us, only 3.5 or 4 miles after takeoff...

There's a pause, local's probably talking to ground or someone else in the tower cab, local comes back:

Local: Sorry, didn't copy any of that, who was it and what'd you say?

Delta 140: Delta 140, and I said we didn't have required spacing after takeoff.

Local (quite incrediously): Didn't have WHAT?

Delta 140: I said I didn't think we had required spacing behind that 75 infront of us.

Local comes right back, completely confident: I absolutely disagree sir, please call the tower upon landing.

==========

That's not all word for word, but it goes on from there, the Delta captain mentioning his TCAS and asking what local sees right then (7 miles).

I just couldn't believe that a captain actually made that accusation (and neither could local, if you listen) right on frequency.

I definately *could* believe the controller's response and confidence in himself, but the captain just seemed way out of line. I don't think that's his call to make or comment on, especially in front of who knows how many people on that frequency. A few other captains praised Local when they were given instructions in the next 30 minutes, at least three or four.

I was wondering if anyone had a clue as to what could come of that for either Local or the Delta captain, or if anyone else had the same/different thoughts as I did?

[blizzard242]

I have the ZOB Algonac feed and I have heard two tcas alerts because atc was not keeping spacing. seems like a posible oversight problem with the increased weather issues in the aria. http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kjfk/KJFK-Twr-Dec-03-2006-0130Z.mp3 I can understand the Delta Caps concern though, wake tub at three miles could cause the plane to crash. The other day I a plane (forget the comp) reported a unusial turb and later said it felt like wake off traffic.

[davys747]

It was possibly tight.

The 7110.65R states  that...

e. The minima in para 5-5-4, Minima, may be applied in lieu of the 2 minute requirement in subpara f. When para 5-5-4, Minima, are applied, ensure that the appropriate radar separation exists at or prior to the time an aircraft becomes airborne when taking off behind a heavy jet/B757.

NOTE-
The pilot may request additional separation; i.e., 2 minutes vs. 4 miles, but should make this request before taxiing on the runway.

f. Separate IFR/VFR aircraft taking off behind a heavy jet/B757 departure by 2 minutes, when departing: ... 1. The same runway.

The DAL140 take off clearance was given about 1m10s after the previous departure.

If the average speed of the previous departure is say 180kts then they would have done 3.5nm in 1m10s. So this would violate the 4nm rule in subpara e) however, my 180kts figure might be off and it also doesn't take into account the time required for DAL140 to accelerate down the runway either. So it could be less than 3.5 nm or greater depending on the numbers.

[PHL Approach]

Im very surprised that captain has never heard of anticipated separation. Did he say that when he was off the ground or just rolling. If he was just rolling, that 3 miles would have turned to 6. I'll have to pull that archive later.

[Fryy/Avocadoflight]

Clip is now posted in the clips section of the forums.