Delays - Aircraft not Ready

[Marty Becker]

Listening to KORD and KJFK the majority of the time, I continually hear aircraft that are number 1 or 2 in the departure line not ready for departure.  Most of the time it is the lack of weight/performance data, INS alignment or passengers in the lav.  Controllers are always having to move these aircraft out of line and then back into line, thus disrupting the flow.  Alot of delays are publicly blamed on crowded skies, ATC, weather, etc., but these fore mentioned examples seem to becoming more obvious when listening to the feeds.

Anyone else noticed this?

[KSYR-pjr]

Those may be a noteworthy percentage of scheduled air carrier delays but I believe weather and airspace saturation are still, by far, the biggest reasons for scheduled air carrier delays, at least when discussing the northeast US.   

Last summer during several weeks of heavy thunderstorms there were quite a few days, including some sunny ones, where the White Plains, NY, tower controller would announce, "NY just closed the airspace to all departing IFR traffic.  All IFR aircraft contact clearance for an update."  Or this one after receiving an IFR clearance, "... contact ground five minutes before engine start and taxi.  We need to receive approval from NY before we can release you."  (or something close to that - they needed a heads-up before an aircraft was ready to taxi to notify NY about the upcoming IFR departure, just in case NY wanted to hold the aircraft on the ground).

[jmcmanna]

I've noticed this as a controller, and it drives me nuts because the airlines with blame the ATC system on something that the flight crew could have prevented.  Here's an example:

FLGXXXX going to MSP.  EDCT Program to MSP, and his EDCT time was his proposed departure time.  Crew taxis to the runway, I call for his release, and get a 10 minute window (EDCT +/- 5 mins).  Airplane arrives at end of runway with 8 minutes left in his release window.  Airplane "waiting on numbers" for 15 minutes, misses EDCT and release window, now has to take additional 20 minute delay at end of runway.  Just for fun I went to nwa.com and punched in the flight number . . . "delayed due to air traffic control" in the flight status, even though they missed their gigantic release window because of their own company's inability to have the airplane ready to go at its own proposed departure time.

[djmodifyd]

Amen brother.

I see it ALL the time. And then WE get blamed

[cessna157]

Just for fun I went to nwa.com and punched in the flight number . . . "delayed due to air traffic control" in the flight status, even though they missed their gigantic release window because of their own company's inability to have the airplane ready to go at its own proposed departure time.

You are reading way too much into it.  That has nothing to do with the time the aircraft was supposed to get off the ground.  You would have to compare the scheduled departure time to the actual out time.  Whenever an aircraft pushes from the gate 1 minute or more past its scheduled departure time,  a delay code must be entered.  In the Delta system, there are hundreds of codes that can define why an aircraft pushed late.  The NWA website takes that delay code and translates it into something that the general public can understand.

Why this flight showed an ATC delay, I have no idea.  Was the aircraft late because it arrived late due to an earlier ATC delay?  Was this flight late due to ground stop/GDP into its destination?  Was there ramp congestion at the time of pushback?

If a flight is scheduled to leave at 1400, pushes at 1358, but doesn't get off the ground until 1548 due to ground stop/GDP, the flight still departed on time.  The time the wheels leave the ground has nothing to do with the coding of delays until the next flight segment comes into play.

Don't take it personal that some airlines miss EDCTs due to weight/balance calculations.  That is the airline's procedure, and missing an EDCT is their own fault.  At my airline, I (the first officer) make all of the weight/balance calculations and determine if the aircraft is safe/legal to fly all before we push from the gate.  That way, we are completely ready to go when we arrive at the runway, assuming the flight attendants are ready to go.

[RV1]

Although we, as controllers, don't know the specifics of each flight, ie: whether they departed on time, more headwind than expected, etc., it seems that 'ATC delays' are the catch all phrase stated to remove the blame from the airlines, the ground crew, the cabin crew, scheduling, or whatever. Why not just blame it on the ATC system, just another justification for pushing towards NEXGEN! (NEXGEN can fix ALL delay problems and get 45 mpg in the city, 50 on the highway).
   EGFXXX checks on 40 miles from airport at 13000 requests straight in RY36. Told to descend at pilot's discretion to 2500. SKC visibility 20+. 10 miles out still at 10000. 'EGFXXX are you going to make it down?' "No problem". 5 out at 7000. 'ARE you going to make the airport? "Affirmative" . 3 out at 4500, "we're not gonna make it down". 'Roger, turn left heading 210 for your descent'. "Roger, Folks, it seems that ATC kept us up too high and now we're not able to descend to the airport in time, so we'll be making a 360 turn out here to the south for our descent". 'Uh EGF, that was on approach freq!'
  Isn't it always easier to blame ATC than  ....anyone?

[KSYR-pjr]

Although we, as controllers, don't know the specifics of each flight, ie: whether they departed on time, more headwind than expected, etc., it seems that 'ATC delays' are the catch all phrase stated to remove the blame from the airlines, the ground crew, the cabin crew, scheduling, or whatever. Why not just blame it on the ATC system, just another justification for pushing towards NEXGEN! (NEXGEN can fix ALL delay problems and get 45 mpg in the city, 50 on the highway).

You all should take comfort in hearing that lame excuse because anyone in the know immediately translates "ATC delays" into this:  "Our clueless management at the airlines have scheduled way too many flights at the same time into and out of that airport and ATC, in their most sacred quest to keep us from running into each other, has responded by holding us on the ground, in essence protecting us from ourselves, which ultimately saves the airlines money and keeps both pilot and controller less stressed, reducing the chance of mistakes that could lead to aluminum hitting aluminum."

[djmodifyd]

Just for fun I went to nwa.com and punched in the flight number . . . "delayed due to air traffic control" in the flight status, even though they missed their gigantic release window because of their own company's inability to have the airplane ready to go at its own proposed departure time.

You are reading way too much into it.  That has nothing to do with the time the aircraft was supposed to get off the ground.  You would have to compare the scheduled departure time to the actual out time.  Whenever an aircraft pushes from the gate 1 minute or more past its scheduled departure time,  a delay code must be entered.  In the Delta system, there are hundreds of codes that can define why an aircraft pushed late.  The NWA website takes that delay code and translates it into something that the general public can understand.

Why this flight showed an ATC delay, I have no idea.  Was the aircraft late because it arrived late due to an earlier ATC delay?  Was this flight late due to ground stop/GDP into its destination?  Was there ramp congestion at the time of pushback?

If a flight is scheduled to leave at 1400, pushes at 1358, but doesn't get off the ground until 1548 due to ground stop/GDP, the flight still departed on time.  The time the wheels leave the ground has nothing to do with the coding of delays until the next flight segment comes into play.

Don't take it personal that some airlines miss EDCTs due to weight/balance calculations.  That is the airline's procedure, and missing an EDCT is their own fault.  At my airline, I (the first officer) make all of the weight/balance calculations and determine if the aircraft is safe/legal to fly all before we push from the gate.  That way, we are completely ready to go when we arrive at the runway, assuming the flight attendants are ready to go.

NWA does this all the time....its the only airline i've seen that causes delays to themselves all the time because they don't have their numbers.

it sounds like your airline actually has a good idea by having the FO do the calculations