LiveATC Discussion Forums
Air Traffic Monitoring => Listener Forum => Topic started by: Scrapper on December 20, 2006, 03:55:09 PM
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Hi guys... I know that we've probably already talked about this ad nauseum already but I'm getting really frustrated trying to listen to Toronto Centre, and all I hear is the local Toronto City Centre stuff... While I realize that both are very interesting to listen to (higher level stuff coming in and going out of and through Toronto, to Montreal and Ottawa and stuff as well as the city centre stuff and how they avoid the YYZ terminal area) it is absolutely RIDICULOUS to try and provide both on the same feed! The busiest airspace in Canada, and the feed has 15 DIFFERENT FREQS being scanned... It is impossible to hear the same plane more than once, or to follow a flight because it keeps switching from one frequency to another... As a perfect example I was listening to a departing Air Canada flight out of YYZ today, and had them beautifully on the tower, the terminal freq, and then when they switched over to toronto centre, I switched over, caught them checking in, then never heard of them for 20 minutes while I was forced to listen in to all the city centre schmoz... then I caught a gimpse of them switching to montreal centre prior to checking in with ottawa terminal... imagine if the NY area had all of JFKs tower, terminal and centre frequencies all on the same site! I hate to mank about this for minutes on end, but there's no point in having this many frequencies as it just makes it impossible to listen to ANYTHING... I would HIGHLY recommend splitting this into two different sites (one for city centre and one for the acc itself) to make it worth listening to... otherwise, might as well get rid of the whole thing because listening to 15 freqs at once is just retarded... sorry I'm all worked up, but you guys run an outstanding web site, so it's frustrating when one of your favourite listening streams is this screwed up...
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Firstly, realize that the majority of feeds here (perhaps 99% of them) are run by volunteers, not by the publisher of this site. All hardware, OS software, and ISP costs are borne by the feeder out of their desire to give back to the world at large. The site publisher simply hosts the feeds (it is worth mentioning that Dave also contributes an excessive amount of time and money to keep this site running, but that is another topic).
Secondly, as a volunteer feeder myself, I personally agree with you that too many frequencies on the same feed make the feed impossible to enjoy. I also enjoy hearing the same aircraft "pass through the system," as it were. Having less frequencies per feed also make it possible to catch the duration of aircraft emergencies, which can be some pretty intense, real-time drama.
With these points in mind, I have a suggestion for you: Since a) you clearly prefer that feed (assuming it were split), b) the feeder of that site is providing the hardware and the Internet connection to get the feed to this site, and c) it would cost more money out of his pocket to separate the feed (additional scanner, additional sound card), perhaps you might work with the feeder to raise the needed funds to split the feed either through personal donations or a group of donations (say, contact a bunch of locals who enjoy that feed).
I feel your pain, but in the end it is volunteers like this feeder who make the site what it is. As a vocal listener you may have to step up to the plate here, too, if you desire to see what you prefer.
Edit: Added bolded word that was somehow removed by my editor. :)
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absolutely agree with you about everything you said (including even stepping up to the plate if necessary), I guess the reason I was posting this on here is to see how many people might be interested in this, or to even just get a feel if the volunteer who runs that feed is even interested in splitting the feed or not... may not require any extra money though... if we can just figure out whether people prefer listening to city centre or to the high altitude stuff, it may not be a bad idea just to get rid of one of the two all together and go back to the way it used to be (centre only... city centre airport was added on more recently and ever since has made the feed very difficult to listen to...) if there are enough people out there that agree with me, maybe the volunteer wouldn't mind dropping the city centre feqs all together...
On another note, I want to dispel the misunderstanding that I am unhappy with the service... I think dave and his guys run a great site and all on their own time, and mostly out of their own pocket... the volunteers who provide the feeds do a great job as well... I'm just making a suggestion to see 1) whether enough people agree with me, and 2) whether the feed provider is willing to talk about some alternatives so that we can all enjoy the feed more... perhaps have centre stuff one week and city centre stuff the next, and then let people decide which they like better... since we already have a toronto terminal feed, my vote is for centre instead of city centre airport... that way, like you said, you can hear aircraft coming into toronto from over 100 miles away as they're decending through the various airspaces until they reach terminal then tower, then land... Not sure who provides this feed, but I'm basically asking that we open a dialogue amongst all us listeners and come up with a BETTER way of doing this... if it envolves more money, then I'm sure that people (including myself) might be willing to help out with the money... however, if not that many people are interested in one vs. the other, then extra money not needed... just need to get rid of the extra freqs...
Looking forward to talking more about this with anyone out there (including hopefully the feed provider...)
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I totally agree with the first poster, it just doesn't make sense loading up a lot of busy frequencies on one radio, as you point out the feed becomes very frustrating to try and listen to. It's not just the CYYZ feed either, unfortunately there are few other feeds with the same frustrating problem. Why go through all the trouble of setting up a feed and then ruin it by adding so many frequencies ? My only guess is the person who set up the radio doesn't really understand how the airspace is set up, or that some people just like to listen to what ends up sounding like a bunch of random transmissions ?
DJ
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It's not just the CYYZ feed
The CYYZ feed is okay in my mind; it was previously discussed. I believe it's six frequencies, north/south tower, arrival, and departure; only four are generally used.
It must be Toronto Centre (CZYZ) of which you're speaking, and it is indeed scanning many frequencies and the feeder may want to consider dropping some of these. I know he added the YYZ tower/arrival/departure frequencies while the normal YYZ feed was having problems, occasionally one hears these transmissions.
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Adrian, you're absolutely correct, the YYZ feed is perfect, but the ZYZ feed is not only ZYZ but also Toronto City Centre... adding an airport to an already busy ACC is ridiculous... hopefully the feeder is on here and is reading this... if so, maybe the feeder can join this conversation so we can come up with a better list of freqs to listen to... Toronto City Centre Airport doesn't really have anything to do with the ACC so I'm not sure why it was added to this feed in the first place...
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Ok OK No need to get your knickers in a knot! :-D When I took over CZYZ I was given a list of Freq's by the original feeder. The extra ones at the bottom for CYTZ, CYKZ and CYZD have been locked out for ages. I just forgot to get Dave to remove them. Since I'm not that versed in what Freqs I should have on CZYZ or even CYYZ. Please do give me a list if you have one. I don't have a problem fixing things up for you all it would be my pleasure. :-P :evil: :wink: :-D
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Would you be able/willing to host an additional scanner? I have a spare one lying around that can be used if you want to split the feed.
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CZYZ Centre Frequencies:
http://www.canairradio.com/yyzacc.html (http://www.canairradio.com/yyzacc.html)
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Since I'm not that versed in what Freqs I should have on CZYZ or even CYYZ. Please do give me a list if you have one. I don't have a problem fixing things up for you all it would be my pleasure.
Are you running both feeds ? My suggestion for the CZYZ (Center) feed would be to concentrate on the enroute Center frequencies only, just listening now it sounds like you have some Tower and Terminal frequencies in there, when these are already covered on the other CYYZ feed.
If it was me I'd scan the following ONLY on the CZYZ feed.
127.000
124.925
124.675
134.575
135.625
120.175
125.775
134.925
132.575
This gives you coverage of all adjacent low sectors and the high sectors overhead YYZ. I'd turn all delays OFF and make sure no priority channels are set. Just my opinion. Any chance you could set that up as a test and we can see how it works ? DJ
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jetscan, I didn't realize you posted here already, disregard my other post re the delays... Those adjacent sectors and high altitudes sound interesting... let me know if you guys test this, I'd like to listen and offer my 2 cents... but it should be much less busy without the terminal and tower freqs that we keep overhearing... Those bottom freqs that are supposed to be locked out are not locked out I don't think, because I'm sure I heard toronto city centre clearing planes to land the other day... I'd really like to see the freqs jetscan suggested tried out if that's at all possible... and if it works then those freqs should be the only ones scanned if you only have one scanner (because CYYZ is a busy feed of terminal stuff, so it would be fun to have a feed of the adjacent and overhead enroute stuff... great for following flights as well..). Then if you DO acquire a second scanner, you could think of adding the toronto city centre stuff to that one if there's interest in those as well, but if not I would just leave those out all together for now... Don't know if I'll get a chance to post tomorrow or not, just arrived to visit my in-laws for the next couple of days, so if not, merry xmas to everyone and happy holidays...
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Let's make that list an even 10 frequencies by adding 132.475 to the list. :-D
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My only other concern is that with NO delay, it's going to jump from one conversation to another... whereas with just a minimum amount of delay, when the scanner picks something up, at the end of the conversation, it'll stick around for the response... with no delay, it'll start scanning again right away and pick up something on another freq and we'll miss the response...
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Let's make that list an even 10 frequencies by adding 132.475 to the list.
I missed that one, 132.475, as well as 124.025.
127.000
124.925
124.675
134.575
135.625
120.175
125.775
134.925
132.575
132.475
124.025
If we could get ONLY these 11 frequencies set as a test, with no delays and no priority channels set, that would be great. It's way too many frequencies for one radio, ideally to do CZYZ justice you would need 4 separate radios dedicated to specific sectors/areas like north/south/east/west and high/low etc. But with only one radio available I guess it becomes a compromise between aircraft coverage vs area coverage.
My only other concern is that with NO delay, it's going to jump from one conversation to another... whereas with just a minimum amount of delay, when the scanner picks something up, at the end of the conversation, it'll stick around for the response... with no delay, it'll start scanning again right away and pick up something on another freq and we'll miss the response...
I agree about the missed reply thing, but I find if that is a continual problem it probably means you are scanning too many frequencies. I find with the delay set you end up getting a lot of clipped transmissions that you would otherwise hear or miss something entirely. DJ
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This would be a CZYZ dream setup
Radio 1 - northeast (low/high)
124.925
127.000
124.675
134.575
Radio 2 - east through west low (low)
120.175
132.475
135.625
Radio 3 - overhead/east through west (high)
125.775
134.925
135.825
Radio 4 - west through north (low/high)
132.575
124.025
124.375
121.225
If anyone can provide the location, the internet connection and the PC, I'd donate the money to buy 4 radios.
DJ
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This would be a CZYZ dream setup
Radio 1 - northeast (low/high)
124.925
127.000
124.675
134.575
Radio 2 - east through west low (low)
120.175
132.475
135.625
Radio 3 - overhead/east through west (high)
125.775
134.925
135.825
Radio 4 - west through north (low/high)
132.575
124.025
124.375
121.225
If anyone can provide the location, the internet connection and the PC, I'd donate the money to buy 4 radios.
DJ
Hi DJ,
Let's kill the delay question, there is none on the radios I have.
CZYZ is currently running on a Uniden BC 350C, CYYZ is running on a Uniden BC350A
These are setup on two different computers. My plan was to put them both on the same pc.
Now if I end up adding more radios my concern is figuring how I'm going to get 5 sound cards stuffed in there? Unless I can run onboard sound and maybe 2 cards with dual inputs. The other question is how many instances of STWin can you run before you run into issues?
I have no problem putting this together if your willing to cover the extra radios. I would like to keep the radios all the same make. That way I can make a rack to keep everything neat and tidy. I'm 5 minutes south east of Pearson International. I'm running a decent discone antenna and I have both Rogers Broadband as well as Sympatico Broadband so I'm never without internet access. In the meantime if you want the freqs changed on CZYZ I need the freq description with the number.
Hamilton Sector 132.475
Centralia Sector 125.775
East Radar 124.92
East Satellite 133.4
West Satellite 119.3 etc
Best regards,
Tom
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Tom,
Let's kill the delay question, there is none on the radios I have. CZYZ is currently running on a Uniden BC 350C, CYYZ is running on a Uniden BC350A
AFAIK there is a built in delay function on the BC350 radios that can not be disabled. I think the problem is it sounds like you have a priority function turned on some of the channels ?
Now if I end up adding more radios my concern is figuring how I'm going to get 5 sound cards stuffed in there? Unless I can run onboard sound and maybe 2 cards with dual inputs. The other question is how many instances of STWin can you run before you run into issues?
Okay well let me know if you can solve these problems, then we can talk about radios.
I have no problem putting this together if your willing to cover the extra radios. I would like to keep the radios all the same make. That way I can make a rack to keep everything neat and tidy.
Unfortunately I don't like BC350's because of that built in delay function you can't turn off. But they are small and convenient to stack.
I'm 5 minutes south east of Pearson International. I'm running a decent discone antenna
Are there any buildings or obstructions blocking reception in any directions ?
In the meantime if you want the freqs changed on CZYZ I need the freq description with the number.
Not sure why you need this to retune the radios ? But here goes ....
127.000 - Simcoe (east/low)
124.925 - East Radar (east/low)
124.675 - Picton (east/high)
134.575 - Barrie (east/high)
135.625 - Kitchener (west/low)
120.175 - Grimsby (west/low)
132.475 - Hamilton (west/low)
125.775 - Centralia (west/high)
134.925 - Oakville (west/high)
132.575 - Wiarton (north/low)
124.025 - Wiarton (north/low)
Please double check to make sure there is no priority channels set. That would be great if you could retune it to the above only and we can see how it works out. Thanks much ! DJ
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Okay scanner is now running your test list... 8-)
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Hi guys... didn't get a chance to listen tonight during any of the busier times (doing the holiday family thing... hope everyone had a festive xmas...) but I listened late tonight and followed AC482 from the ground in montreal on CYYZ all the way to montreal centre, so at least to the east, the setup is perfect as far as frequencies go... One question I had for BuZZ56 was whether there are still other airport freqs on there? (does the feed include pearson stuff at night when it's less busy? or is it city centre stuff? because as I was listening to this flight at 1 in the am, I still caught some stuff from staff ground cars talking to ground control driving around on taxiways... I'll try and have a listen again of your new setup sometime tomorrow afternoon or evening when it's busier...
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Hi Scrapper, I'll recheck the freqs on CYYZ. I found that I had duplicates on CZYZ so I may have buggered some up on CYYZ as well. I guess I better wait a bit 10 people on there right now....
Tom
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Okay scanner is now running your test list...
Listening at 12:45 I can still hear Tower/Departure/Arrival on the CZYZ feed. Can you check and confirm that ONLY those 11 Center frequencies listed above are selected in the radio ? It also kind of sounds like one of those Tower/Departure/Arrival frequencies might be set as a priority channel ? DJ
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Okay scanner is now running your test list...
Listening at 12:45 I can still hear Tower/Departure/Arrival on the CZYZ feed. Can you check and confirm that ONLY those 11 Center frequencies listed above are selected in the radio ? It also kind of sounds like one of those Tower/Departure/Arrival frequencies might be set as a priority channel ? DJ
I just double checked and the only freqs on there are the ones you posted and nothing is set as priority. :?
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I'm listening right now and heard a take-off clearance for runway 23. I'm wondering if your scanner has one of those "features" that automatically tunes to the strongest signal around.
I think Uniden calls it "Close Call RF Capture"
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I just double checked and the only freqs on there are the ones you posted and nothing is set as priority.
I don't know what is going on because you are definately hearing Tower/Arrival/Departure on the CZYZ feed ?
I'm wondering if your scanner has one of those "features" that automatically tunes to the strongest signal around.
If that were the case you would think you would be picking up a lot more transmissons on other frequencies, but it's consistently only Tower/Arrival/Departure, maybe some sort of splashover from the other CYYZ feed, although it seems to block out the other frequencies like it was scanning them ?
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Newbie alert ... Me
for xmas I received a USB audio adaptor. (that clear blue one, if you search)
This may be a simple way to add many more audio inputs.
__
I'm in Toronto, not close enough to be a feed, but have some ideas.
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buzz, what appears to be happening is on the CZYZ feed, not on the CYYZ feed... although you only have those freqs listed above programmed, we're still hearing clearances for takeoffs and landings on the CZYZ feed... so either your scanner is picking up extra freqs on its own (scanner might automatically be scanning ALL airline freqs, some scanners do this as well, and I don't remember how to turn it off...). I haven't double checked jetscan's freq list above to ensure that some tower or ground freq didn't accidentally slip in there! (but I don't think that's it...) any chance it's still getting toronto city centre tower freqs? (although I don't remember if they have a runway 23, I'll have to check the airports in the area and see if anyone else has a runway 23 other than pearson...
Gotta go for now... talk to you guys in a bit
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ok, listening right now at 2156Z on the 29th and again, hearing a landing clearance this time for runway 6R so this I believe has to be pearson's tower we're overhearing on the CZYZ feed... if that's the case, start by investigating if you have the following two freqs appearing on your scanner (118.7,118.35). They are the two freqs for Pearson Tower North and South (6R would probably be on South but I can't remember which freq is which...) you have those two freqs on CYYZ, but I suspect that you either have them accidentally on CZYZ as well or you're getting some kind of splashover like one of the previous posters mentionned...
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I'll second that observation that there is either bleedover/or more frequencies on the feed that are making it difficult to listen to. Listened last night(12-28) and it is annoying a bit to enjoy. Definetly YYZ APP is being picked up on the site.
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I don't know how it's doing it, grrrrrrrrr! I'll have to find some kind of filter for splitting the antenna to the feeds.
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Suggestion for troubleshooting: This may take a bit of time, but watching where the display stops when the audio comes out would be the best place to start (or use a video camera and let someone else tell you what minute to review!) Then listen to that frequency on another radio to see if in fact Tower is simulcasting certain communications on multiple frequencies.
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Your camera or watching the display idea is a great place to troubleshoot this problem, but I don't agree that tower would be simulcasting... not on centre freqs anyway... ground facilities sometimes simulcast on more than one freq but not usually tower... they'll sometimes simulcast on ground and clearance delivery at the same time if it's not busy, etc. but tower is usually on its own (for obvious reasons.) On a side note, sometimes terminal control units do this as well, but again, only when not busy (for example, you might have the same person sitting in for two positions (TCU and VFR for example, and in that case will simulcast on both freqs... also on a similar note, usually ATC will also simulcast on UHF freqs, but I believe we talked about this on another string of conversations...)
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Could another possibility be the fact that both scanners are plugged into the same machine with two sound cards and the streaming software is streaming the audio from both cards?
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Could another possibility be the fact that both scanners are plugged into the same machine with two sound cards and the streaming software is streaming the audio from both cards?
No. They are on different machines. The only thing they share is the antenna.
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Hey, if it helps your troubleshooting, I'm listening to Toronto Centre (CZYZ) right now and it occured to me that occasionally I hear two different transmission on two different frequencies at the same time... this should theoretically be impossible... could the antenna be picking up more than one frequency at once? I didn't think this was possible...
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Buzz.. If it helps, I have a spare Bearcat just laying around here if you would like to use it.
Send me a PM and I can drop it off.
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I haven't listened to the feed in awhile, but keep in mind that not all the freqs you're scanning (or thinking about scanning, judging by the lists above) are based at YYZ, so in some/many cases you may hear only the pilots, or possibly nothing at all. For instance:
132.57 (Wiarton sector) is based at Wiarton
124.02 (also Wiarton sector -- these two are coupled so you'll hear exactly the same stuff as on 132.57) is based at Midland
124.37 (Mitchell sector) is also based at Wiarton
121.22 (Killaloe sector) is based at North Bay
While I'd love to hear somebody manage to scan Wiarton successfully (you can listen to me work), I doubt it would be possible unless you could find somebody who lived out on the Bruce Peninsula, or in Midland area. (While you're at it, see if you can find someone in Sault Ste. Marie to scan Sault High, Ranger, and Sault Tower ..)
If you have questions about sectors, frequencies, and bases, I should be able to provide answers. Unfortunately, no (because I'm sure somebody would ask), I can't set up a streaming feed from within the ACC itself due to all kinds of issues with security, appropriate use of work computers, etc.. And I live too far from the ACC to be of any use as a feeder, though I'd certainly consider making a contribution to help out with equipment purchases to split the feed further.
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SY
Oakville sector runs FL310 to FL360, and Lucan goes FL370 and above. I have Lucan as 134.92 and assume sometimes combines with Oakville.
When not combined what are the primary frequencies and what are any of the back-up frequencies for both those Hi Sectors.
Thanks, and good luck with the training
Lexx
www.ykf.ca
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Out of curiousty, is anything from the YYZ Terminal Satellites being picked up? YTZ?
I fly around here all the time and use LiveATC for training and "evaluation"
Sorry if it doesn't live up to the expectations of you big-tin lovers
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Duke
Toronto Satellite can be heard by selecting "Toronto Centre" from this site, click www.ykf.ca, but no YTZ I'm afraid. Just YKF
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The Oakville primary freq is 134.92 and this is what they use when Oakville/Lucan are combined, which is about 99% of the time. Lucan only opens as a stand-alone sector during the summer, when the traffic is really crazy. Even then they sometimes opt to have them stay combined and add a coordinator position to Oakville rather than split Lucan off. It depends on what the staffing situation is like and where the traffic is, altitude-wise. It's not much help to split off 370+ if almost all the traffic is staying below mid-30s due to chop, which sometimes happens.
When they do open Lucan as a stand-alone the frequency is 135.82. I believe this is based in London, unlike the other two (134.92 and 125.77, Centralia's freq, are based in Toronto as far as I know), just FYI for scanning purposes.
To my knowledge there are no VHF backup freqs for these three sectors, but since it's so rare to have all three open 135.82 is effectively a backup in case 134.92 or 125.77 goes down. Mitchell's backup frequency is 119.77 and I've seen that used a few times when there has been maintenance going on at the primary transmitter (124.37 at Wiarton).
Hope this helps.
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It does.
Thank you
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I'm guessing everything is okay now with these feeds? :|
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I'm guessing everything is okay now with these feeds?
Nothing has changed on the CZYZ (Center) feed. Still hearing Pearson Tower, not sure if it's 118.700 or 118.350 or both ? Still hearing Departure 128.800, both controller and aircraft. Still hearing aircraft on Approach 132.800. The controller and aircraft on 128.800 are always strong, but so far I've only heard aircraft coming through faint on 132.800. I also listened to the CZYZ (Center) feed for a bit when the CYYZ (Terminal) feed was down and you were still getting those extra Terminal frequencies coming through on the Center feed. DJ
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Still hearing Pearson Tower, not sure if it's 118.700 or 118.350 or both ?
It's both. The centre feeds cut them out if there's any transmissions on those frequencies.
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Hearing now at 15/Jan/07.. big snow storm hitting Toronto..
However, definitely hearing Arrival, Departure and Tower frequencies (Runway 5 and 6L Ops) on the CZYZ feed.
Would the audio cable switched? The CYYZ frequency seems picking up some center frequencies as well
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Maybe all this is a sound card problem.
I stream a few feeds and couldn't understand once why a certain feed was coming out my speakers when I'd selected a different feed. I checked cables, scanner frequency selections (all the obvious stuff I thought), and finally realized one of the sound card settings were off.
I don't feed directly to Dave, so not sure exactly how you guys stream your various feeds, but I'm sure there are multiple audio cards involved for those feeding more than one set of frequencies. I'd be double checking all those computer settings at both ends. Dave's and the ones near YYZ.
Just a thought.
Lexx
www.ykf.ca
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Just tuned in to Toronto Centre (which I haven't done in a while) and it is still broadcasting YYZ tower. :(
From what I can tell the scanner is getting stepped on by other frequencies.. including YYZ tower.
What model/brand of scanners are you using?