LiveATC Discussion Forums
Air Traffic Monitoring => Listener Forum => Topic started by: Lynch_Christopher on March 02, 2010, 10:29:10 PM
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I was watching this story on the news before. A controller is in trouble for letting a child direct air traffic.
Link to the story:
http://www.myfoxboston.com/dpp/news/national/child-directs-airplanes-over-radio-transmissions-at-jfk-airport
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anyone know who it is?
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I don't think anyone is going to give out the name of the controller which is good since the whole thing is under investigation. If it were me I wouldn't want my name given out for the whole world to see. I am really surprised that he let his son direct aircraft in those transmissions.
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It would be in very poor taste to do that.
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It would be in very poor taste to do that.
And is in direct violation of one of the rules of behavior for these forums.
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I think its the guy I like listening to at JFK too. : (
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Just heard the story on 1010 WINS news complete with a recording. The guy is on administrative leave while the FAA investigates it.
That sucks...
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I saw the story. I heard the clips and am very saddened by this. Irritated to be exact. Daddy was right there, in control, supervising.
The dad and son just got a lesson in how crap runs downhill. Its too bad the kid (who did a great job) will not be able to remember this fun day with his dad the way it was meant to be.
Our society over reacts so much over the most petty things.
sigh
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It's one of the top stories on Miami talk radio this morning. I gotta go with NO BIG DEAL on this one because (don't tell any one) when I was a little older then this child, maybe 12, I too was a radio star at FLL. That was 40 years ago :-o
I think it's safe to assume that the controller that allowed this no longer works for the FAA :-D
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By what I heard, at no time was any aircraft's safety in jeopardy. He was much easier to understand than some controllers I have listened to.
It's obviously that the real controller was giving the complicated instructions, junior only gave very easy instructions. He did good.
Was it right? Maybe not. Did I like it? Darn right I did. Hope all works out for the controller or as the article states "controllers".
Dan
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:? The situation was 'controlled' I have to agree that this is really no big deal.
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That kid did better than some professionals I've heard.
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again the world press making something out of nothing!! the pilots didnt seem to mind and im sure if they wernt happy with it they would have opened there mouths
yeah perhaps it was wrong but a slap on the wrist for all involved and a dont do it again would have been enough after all not like the kid was unsupervised. Well atleast when he goes back to school he will have a great story to tell :-D
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again the world press making something out of nothing!! the pilots didnt seem to mind and im sure if they wernt happy with it they would have opened there mouths
yeah perhaps it was wrong but a slap on the wrist for all involved and a dont do it again would have been enough after all not like the kid was unsupervised. Well atleast when he goes back to school he will have a great story to tell :-D
I agree completely. The press is blowing it out of proportion (like they always do..)
They make it seem like the child was unsupervised. From the audio it sounded like he was directing ground traffic with the help of his dad right next to him.
unfortunately, the controller will probably be fired for doing this..
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I agree - the media has nothing better to do than this - which should be a non-story. I listened to the replay on liveATC, it was clearly during a very quiet time at JFK, the kid was doing great, the controller even announced what was going on so the pilots would not think it was a rogue comment from someone with a portable transceiver.
With the shortage of controllers & not many wanting to live in NY for the same pay as elsewhere, they should publicly reprimand the guy, and then privately just say "what were you thinking..?" and let it be done with.
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Agree with everyone else here, it's not a big deal at all. Just another case of making something out of nothing, unfortunately. I hope no serious disciplinary actions are taken against the controller.
KP
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hey dave, why wasnt live atc initially credited for the recording ? edman and supadog, definatly agree w/you. see www.1010wins.com .. most comments are positive. i hope all involved come away from this ok. no harm here a slow time in the tower but probably not a wise decision by dad. the press has ran amok w/this as usual. BUT, id not like to see this on a regular basis. its cool to bring your kid to " TAKE YOUR CHILD TO WORK DAY" good luck and wishes to those involved we NEED quality/veteran controllers ...
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Seems pretty harmless to me...
"The few quick exchanges between the elementary-school-aged child and jets waiting to take off from JFK became public after they were recorded and posted on the Internet. On the recordings, the child appears to be repeating simple instructions given by his father."
From:
http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-national/20100303/US.Child.Air.Traffic/
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hey dave, why wasnt live atc initially credited for the recording ? edman and supadog, definatly agree w/you. see www.1010wins.com .. most comments are positive. i hope all involved come away from this ok.
I came here to ask if Dave or LiveATC members can help these controllers in any way. The media is crediting Dave as the person who initially reported these recordings. I'm curious to ask if that is true, and if so was it reported as an issue, or was it just interesting and cool?
I'd like to know if there is anyway to help these employees, as I'm thinking they will lose their jobs by the time the media gets done with them. Any FAA contacts or suggestions from the forum?
Thank You,
Troy
United Airlines SFOOO
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hey dave, why wasnt live atc initially credited for the recording ? edman and supadog, definatly agree w/you. see www.1010wins.com .. most comments are positive. i hope all involved come away from this ok. no harm here a slow time in the tower but probably not a wise decision by dad. the press has ran amok w/this as usual. BUT, id not like to see this on a regular basis. its cool to bring your kid to " TAKE YOUR CHILD TO WORK DAY" good luck and wishes to those involved we NEED quality/veteran controllers ...
Dave was credited in the comcast.net article.
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thanks supadog , i wasnt aware of that.. troy, god bless, id be one of the first to support them if i knew the regime. any one out there have any suggestions?
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I feel so bad for the kid and his father (I have a feeling whom it might be), it was all so innocently done, and he did such a great job, and it didn't sound like the pilots had a problem with it!!!
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Was this the same controller who was in that legendary recording known as "Bad Day at JFK Ground"?
I'm very new to aviation communications but that guy is very good at what he does, even if he does inject a little humor into his job.
The NBC coverage of this was ridiculous, they managed to equate the JFK controller with an Aeroflot pilot who let his kids fly and subsequently crash an airliner. They played B-roll of the wreckage from that crash when discussing the JFK "incident." The mind reels from the lack of ethics.
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This sucks. That guy is my favorite controller - a total pro and fun to listen to, particularly when he's under pressure. Unfortunately, this whole story has become fodder for the 24-hour news cycle since there's literally no other news happening in the world :roll:
When I was young my parents took me to their workplaces (both are scientists in medicine). You _could_ consider those labs a pretty dangerous place with the variety of chemicals and even radioactive material that was around, so I guess that would make my folks wildly irresponsible in the eyes of the world. Too bad, since those trips got me interested in science more than any textbook or classroom could.
Of course the FAA has to investigate - they can't immediately issue a statement that says it's "not an issue", but give the guy some slack - the kid isn't vectoring the planes on final approach. Plus, the kid is easier to understand than some of the pilots!
God forbid a father takes an interest in inspiring his kids.....
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I think this is the same controller that talked Jet Blue 654 back into Kennedy shortly after takeoff, even after loss of voice radio comm. If any of the news media are poking around these forums, it might be worth noting that this guy happens to be _really_ good at what he does. It would be a shame if the hysteria around this incident took him away from the tower...
http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/jbu654-erj-190-aug-31st-2009-smoke-in-cabin-followed-by-loss-comm/
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yeah the uk evening news also picked up on it shame if this guy lost his job over this ,just a great day out for a wee kid no harm came to anyone what ever happend to freedom of speech !
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FAA investigating a second incident the next day involving the same controller but a different child. Two transmissions were made.
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The news report I heard about this said it occurred on February 17th, but didn't say what time. Does anyone have the LiveATC.net link for this transmission? I'd like to listen to the whole thing, in context.
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Was this the same controller who was in that legendary recording known as "Bad Day at JFK Ground"?
I'm very new to aviation communications but that guy is very good at what he does, even if he does inject a little humor into his job.
The NBC coverage of this was ridiculous, they managed to equate the JFK controller with an Aeroflot pilot who let his kids fly and subsequently crash an airliner. They played B-roll of the wreckage from that crash when discussing the JFK "incident." The mind reels from the lack of ethics.
Yes and they even messed the facts of that story up what they did not tell you about that Aeroflot flight was their was a major flaw with the autopilot that made it disconnect when the control column was pushed or moved NOONE even the mfg knew about that flaw and because of that incident a major flaw was fixed...this was a non issue i worry more about student drivers especially the student semi drivers than this..this is why I hate the media always take something small and blow it up poor kids now they get to blame them selves for getting daddy fired think they will want to be controllers now?..thanks media and stupid uninformed public. posting this as if they were giving flight instructions or vital instructions we should swamp the FAA and help this controller out shame on you media.
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It is great that everyone has some sympathy for both Father and child. But the Father knew the rules and he violated them. This wasn't on the midshift, this was done during a busy period of traffic. I am a controller and we all know that you do not let someone broadcast on the air. Have I seen it done? Yes I have. But it becomes a problem when you get caught. The supervisor should be suspended also since he/she let it happen.
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Was this the same controller who was in that legendary recording known as "Bad Day at JFK Ground"?
No. It wasn't.
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I sure hope that "Crash" is some sort of nickname other than anything having to do with you occupation. :?
For Pete's sake...the kid was NOT left alone in the tower cab while Daddy went for lunch!!!
If ANYONE would have complained, don't you think it would have been the pilots themselves?? Or perhaps the 3 or 4 other controllers on duty in the tower at that time? But NO..they enjoyed the moment because they realized (unlike the sensationalist media and a few others getting their panties in a bunch) that this was NOT an unsafe event.
And FWIW...the kid was more articulate than some of the controllers I have had to deal with. :-D
Mike
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No one has listened to the recording on LiveATC.net? If you have, could you share the time of day (or even the link). Thanks.
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It's really a shame that the controller would even be prosecuted. The kid had to come into work with his father. If he was bored he could have gotten another pair of head phones and had him listen along with his father. But all the pilots that heard this seem to be enjoying themselves from having gotten a nice treat out of it. Hey, I enjoyed it too! But if I were given the opportunity to do what that kid did, I would jump at it!!
http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/new-kjfk-controller/?action=dlattach;attach=3316
I think this is the link you are looking for. By the way, I personally think the kid did a really good job!
Question: Does anyone think he acted a little like Boston John?
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No one has listened to the recording on LiveATC.net? If you have, could you share the time of day (or even the link). Thanks.
Maybe it should be removed. It makes me wonder if this site could have negative consequences for controllers such as this example. Did someone report him, or did he get caught because someone posted a clip? It is a shame and very disappointing. If I was that kid, or one of the pilots, it would be a thing to remember for life.
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fryy , too late to remove it now, as it is all over the world.. agreed, the media SUCKS. especially in new york. did anyone catch letterman tonite ? dave letterman is a jerk !!
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It's really a shame that the controller would even be prosecuted. The kid had to come into work with his father. If he was bored he could have gotten another pair of head phones and had him listen along with his father. But all the pilots that heard this seem to be enjoying themselves from having gotten a nice treat out of it. Hey, I enjoyed it too! But if I were given the opportunity to do what that kid did, I would jump at it!!
http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/new-kjfk-controller/?action=dlattach;attach=3316
I think this is the link you are looking for. By the way, I personally think the kid did a really good job!
Question: Does anyone think he acted a little like Boston John?
Yes I do..especially when he said "adios amigos"
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Again Like the others here i cant see what all the fuss is about.... Its clear from the clips i head on the radio this moning (on my local station in manchester UK!!! for goodness sake) that the controller was in control at all times... although i did hear him give a rather more critical clearance than a ground taxi instruction..! (he clears at least one AC for takeoff)
This sort of thing has allways happened and will probabbly continue to happen. I know ive done similiar in the past (worked a railway signal box under instruction)!
I feel that the controller in this case should get a very public slap on the wrist, but no more than that!
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Most people who are even vaguely familiar with ATC know that this was NOT an unsafe operation. You know that this controller was not alone in the cab with his son because he gave no clearances and no taxi instructions. This meant that there was at least one other controller up there, at LEAST one. You also know that when a controller is training a controller-in-training, the trainee will and often does make mistakes. The trainer will, if necessary, key up and correct the mistake or allow the trainee sufficient time to fix the mistake. The trainer has his headset in the override jack just for that reason. The majority of what the kid was frequency changes. We've done that in the past for individuals on tours/job shadowing, just not very often and always with the hope that the training department wouldn't pick that day to pull the tapes for our tape talk. We are not licensed by the FCC to broadcast on the radio as individuals, maybe the FAA is as a whole, I don't know. There is, however, no restrictions, licenses or whatever for us to key up our mics.
That being said, it was against the rules. We deal daily with rules upon rules. The rules are ever changing and there are many of them! When I started, the .65 was about 3/4" thick. Now it's 1 1/2-2".
Sometimes it would be better to work at a smaller, out of the way facility that nobody really monitors and do this than at a place like JFK. Things like this can disappear easier from small facilities than they can at places that are more in the focus of the world/media.
The other factors at play here are that until a few months ago, the controllers were under Imposed Work Rules and were (still are in some areas) dealing with people in management that were more than willing to make examples of some controllers to get the rest to toe the line. We've been telling all the new hires to not give management reasons to look into firing them. Odd isn't it, that that is part of the training protocol even though there is a shortage of controllers?
I think that the media will end up forcing the FAA's hand in dealing with the controller and his supe. If it hadn't been international news, it probably would have been a stern talking to and a 'Don't let it happen again'. But since it hit all major networks...
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With all due respect to everyone and I do have respect for ATC's and you guys of course, I think everyone is kind of missing the point. This isn't about the ATC world and whether they think its safe or not. Its about someone who is directing traffic in one of the world's busiest regions of air travel and that person's judgement. He then apparently thought it was so much fun he brought the other kid the next day. I think the FAA and the ATC union have made it clear there is a certain level of professionalism and responsibility when you work at this job. Sure no harm was done, but I think with the hundreds of runway incursions this country has experienced over the past few years we should all know by now that anything can happen. I know its cute and funny when a child is in the tower and just saying a couple words. But, all it takes is one lapse of concentration by someone and catastrophe can happen. I'm not going to knock the safety of having the child in tower, but I will knock the controller's judgement and to me having proper judgment is critical in a job where one mistake can and has in the past cost people's lives. This guy's actions are unacceptable if only because it sends the message that JFK controllers aren't serious about their jobs which are very important jobs. Sure we we all know a bit more in this forum about ATC and how its conducted etc. But the rest of the world doesn't, and this controller doesn't work for us, he works for the rest of the world. The FAA and the ATC union have made it clear that this kind of conduct is troubling and unacceptable and I have to agree. It simply shouldn't happen. When we let standards lapse, the whole industry suffers, and that isn't fair to the other controllers who work their tail off to get the job done right. There are plenty of jobs where kids are welcome at work with their dad. Just the thought of having a child in the tower around a bunch of people trying to concentrate is enough of a problem for me. I've worked in a cubicle and had trouble concentrating when someone brought their kid to work. I can't imagine being in a tower directing traffic around JFK and having a youngster hanging around. Stressful environments where lives are at risk are not for kids. I like kids and I thought the recordings were sort of funny as did the pilots, but it was poor judgment and it happened two days in a row. Unacceptable to have this kind of judgement and demand respect for having a stressful job at the same time. It appears the controller will probably lose his job and that's unfortunate. But, when you think about him knowing the rules, and allowing his kid in the tower two days in a row, I can't see how anyone can be surprised. This is not your average office job here.
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the FAA and NATCA National should be the last to pull the professionalism and responsibility card out.
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the FAA and NATCA National should be the last to pull the professionalism and responsibility card out.
And I find it amazing that the people who seem to be so outraged about this are not much more outraged about the massive waste that surrounds FAA and other government projects.
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I agree Dave. The FAA has to bluster and investigate with the help of the "lamestream media" to distract from all the other safety failures and inaction on safety issues they are guilty of in aviation. The bureaucrats at the FAA are just covering for their own incompetence. Picking on a kid with such self righteousness is ridiculous and just points out their irrelevance.
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I think that the bigger lesson in all this is; anything you say is being recorded and will be used against you.
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With all due respect to everyone and I do have respect for ATC's and you guys of course, I think everyone is kind of missing the point. This isn't about the ATC world and whether they think its safe or not. Its about someone who is directing traffic in one of the world's busiest regions of air travel and that person's judgement. He then apparently thought it was so much fun he brought the other kid the next day. I think the FAA and the ATC union have made it clear there is a certain level of professionalism and responsibility when you work at this job. Sure no harm was done, but I think with the hundreds of runway incursions this country has experienced over the past few years we should all know by now that anything can happen. I know its cute and funny when a child is in the tower and just saying a couple words. But, all it takes is one lapse of concentration by someone and catastrophe can happen. I'm not going to knock the safety of having the child in tower, but I will knock the controller's judgement and to me having proper judgment is critical in a job where one mistake can and has in the past cost people's lives. This guy's actions are unacceptable if only because it sends the message that JFK controllers aren't serious about their jobs which are very important jobs. Sure we we all know a bit more in this forum about ATC and how its conducted etc. But the rest of the world doesn't, and this controller doesn't work for us, he works for the rest of the world. The FAA and the ATC union have made it clear that this kind of conduct is troubling and unacceptable and I have to agree. It simply shouldn't happen. When we let standards lapse, the whole industry suffers, and that isn't fair to the other controllers who work their tail off to get the job done right. There are plenty of jobs where kids are welcome at work with their dad. Just the thought of having a child in the tower around a bunch of people trying to concentrate is enough of a problem for me. I've worked in a cubicle and had trouble concentrating when someone brought their kid to work. I can't imagine being in a tower directing traffic around JFK and having a youngster hanging around. Stressful environments where lives are at risk are not for kids. I like kids and I thought the recordings were sort of funny as did the pilots, but it was poor judgment and it happened two days in a row. Unacceptable to have this kind of judgement and demand respect for having a stressful job at the same time. It appears the controller will probably lose his job and that's unfortunate. But, when you think about him knowing the rules, and allowing his kid in the tower two days in a row, I can't see how anyone can be surprised. This is not your average office job here.
I fully agree with 'YOU' JFER1980!!!! :roll:
The JFK tower is NOT a childcare facility- The supervisor lacked good judgement- The father was NOT doing HIS job HE is paid for- Known policies were REPEATLY violated (with 2 different kids!) ..i guess we should be glad this FATHERS last name was not DUGGER (father of 17 kids!!).
Poor judgement here and NOW there are consequences :oops:. Lesson learned for everyone. :|[/b]
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I think it's very sad that a non malicious decision has caused so much negative attention. The "15 minutes of fame" we're all supposed to have isn't supposed to be like this. Once all the media has gone away and had their fun, a professional controller, his family and young child are left trying to get their lives back to normal. I wish them all well and hope that the "experience" will have a positive influence on this kids future and not make him scared to take chances.
2010 isn't supposed to be like this!
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Having this child on frequency is similar to letting a "new" developmental take the frequency for the first time. I don't understand what the big deal is. As a controller your going to override anything that is said in error. Those that view this job from the outside understandably have no idea.
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This whole mess could have been avoided with one simple sentence:
"Sorry, son; I wish I could let you talk to the planes, but I can't because I have to follow the rules."
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listening to jfk tower right now and some of the pilots are switching over to departure saying "adios" I guess this is their way of showing support for the controller.
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Heard that too, cute.
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I caught this quick clip of an exchange between DL31 and JFK Tower earlier this evening about this. I think that Delta pilot pretty much sums it up!
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Av Herald has transcripts:
http://avherald.com/h?article=4281b0e5&opt=0
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I agree with the poster who noted that LiveATC.net is a "double edged sword." I've been with the site for many years, and while I'm happy to see it grow among in popularity among aviators, controllers, and enthusiasts (a reward for Dave's hard work), I assume there's a notable spike in members/listeners after major incidents caught by our volunteer feeders (Cactus 1549, Colgan,) to name a few recent ones.
If I were a news reporter looking for the next "scoop," I would be monitoring a site like this regularly. Undoubtedly there are some among us. They are welcome here, by Dave's prerogative. My point? This is not just a small site/discussion board where a handful of members or fans muse over interesting/informative/entertaining clips any more. There's a wider audience, and we can see if everyone's updated the survey on what type of listener they are.
Looking back to some clips everyone enjoyed from years ago, though, I'd imagine some would generate some media "column inches." For example, a controller proposing to his girlfriend over the air many years ago...there were no suspensions. No "What if there was an emergency while he was speaking?" No "he broke the rules." No public outcry. (and please, nobody start a riot over this)...
That was a different time, and today, it's probably wise to take a second and think about the consequences of our posts. Who knows who may be reading/listening, and as we have seen in the past and now, things that are posted here can have real consequences on real people.
This is not to say LiveATC caused the current situation, but what could have been a quiet FAA investigation into misconduct now has to ability to sell some papers. It's got audio to go with it (It was the #1 CNN.com story, above the deadly Chilean earthquake). Now it's out. So the FAA has to take action and heads must roll. Now the NATCA is forced to respond with a public statement. Dave has to be contacted for his comment....and on and on....
It's a different time. Time to go find the next scoop.
*Here's one reporter who's obviously well aware of our recent conversation here...
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/03/06/2010-03-06_pilots_high_on_controller_in_jfk_mess.html
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this story/issue is plain ridiculous. As a private pilot (not flying from jfk, I wish!), and a frequent flyer from JFK I see nothing wrong with this. It is pure BS, specially media BS!
Big differences I know, but when I fly (as pilot) it makes such a big difference when controllers are friendly, make jokes etc. I understand that this could have broken some regulations, but it hurt no one, and made for a very nice 15min of an otherwise extremely stressful work environment! People need to get some perspective, and start seen life in a more positive way.
If any of the JFK controllers lurk around here, as a frequent user of your services, I say thank you! you guys do a great job, all the best for the controller in question, hope some other stupid story comes up soon so the media and the public that cant wait for the next story that destroys someone else's life lets this one die!
Abraham
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Hello,everyone I've looked at the helpful links that have been provided to better understand both sides of this incident. The major networks here in Calif. have turned what is essentially a non-event (imo)... into a public relations nightmare for all concerned in this story. It's pretty obvious that media producers have given this story "market value"....and all the venues are going to profit by disseminating this story with the worst possible spin. Yet, these same networks allow themselves to run feature stories about full body scanner methodology at LAX (indirectly compromising air crew and passenger safety). How ironic ! I'll just wish the best for this controller,family,his immediate super.and anyone else who may be targeted for action...and maybe this will all blow over w/o causing undue damage or a loss of confidence(which might just the intended goal of certain politicos and/or orgs. with hidden agendas). Thank you.
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http://gettheflick.blogspot.com/2010/03/when-daddy-let-me-drive.html
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How dare someone inject a bit of lightheartedness into their job! He must be drug out into the street and executed immediately!
/sarcasm
The media this day and age blows things massively out of proportion. They pander to the uneducated and ill-informed with such bias that it only does nothing but only further ignorance.
This should be a non-issue. As said previously, the child was 100% supervised. He was being told exactly what to say for only the briefest transmissions, while the controller was in complete authority of the situation. His child was not grabbing the mic randomly screaming "OMFG EVRYBODY CLR FOR TAKEOFFS! LOL!!", but rather following his dad's instructions to the letter.
We've heard this controller before, he's not a slacker. He is a professional who does his job day in and day out safely and smartly. I would not call this a lapse of judgment. He's just a father who wants to show his children 'what daddy does for a living', and at the same time brighten up this dreary and bleak world we live in, if only for a little bit.
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Right on! I concur 100%
I'd say some of the media are the ones who are uneducated and ill-informed most of the time.
I always have to laugh (actually cringe) when someone refers to a helicopter main rotor as a 'propeller'!
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We kill over 100 people a day on highways and 50 each day with our guns, we cripple hundreds of thousands each year with the same tools and this is what the news feeds us. Feed us only one side of a story not all the facts and if anyone has harmless fun banish them.
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As a pilot i also say it was inspiring that ATC is perhaps trying to interest kids in the profession. ATC faces severe shortages for the future and having to work for the Fed may be part of it, 20 years of being under those types that you saw on NBC, ABC, CBS Evening News, the type of kings that brought you the National Deficit. Blessings to you JFK. gs
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You got that right..... I would be willing to bet that ANYONE in the aviation industry be it baggage handlers or GA pilots would line up at the stairs of their local ATC tower with their kids if giving the chance. That is a once in a lifetime opportunity for those kids and may very well spark the interest in a dying breed of professionals. The problem with the USA today is all this political correctness. I hate it, I hate it, I hate it !!
the FAA and NATCA National should be the last to pull the professionalism and responsibility card out.
And I find it amazing that the people who seem to be so outraged about this are not much more outraged about the massive waste that surrounds FAA and other government projects.