Author Topic: ATC clearance?  (Read 27026 times)

Offline Cessna172

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ATC clearance?
« on: April 30, 2006, 10:41:16 PM »
I watched a very interesting show on NGC about 3 months ago. It was about a crash between two 747s. Now, I haven't seen it for a long while, so if the details are skewed, please forgive me. On a foggy day, both 747s were waiting to for T/O clearance.(but I'm not sure) The first aircraft (I believe was a Lufhty) was position and hold at the end of the runway. A PanAm 747 was taxiing down the runway. (for some reason, which, again, I'm not sure why). While waiting for T/O clearance, the position and holding aircraft recieved a transmission from tower. The transmission said something having to do with ATC clearance. The PanAm was still on the runway, and the FO called the tower controller to tell him this. However, the PanAm FO keyed the mic while the tower controller was transmitting, what we pilots call getting "stepped on." So the aircraft position and holding heard, "Lufthansa 123, Tower, (heterodyne here) clearance. A heterodyne is that squelch that you hear when someone gets stepped on. What the tower really said had something to do with ATC clearance. But, the Lufthansa interpreted that as a T/O clearance. So they throttled forward, while the PanAm was still on the runway. Remember, this was a foggy day, and the Lufthansa was position and holding for a long time, and the captain was getting impacient, as he was a sim instructor, and thus, got to T/O anytime he wanted and didn't have to wait for clearance. Also, for some weird reason, the Lufthansa didn't acknowledge clearance. So the Lufthansa began T/O roll, reached Vr, rotated, and clipped the PanAm on the runway. Of course all hell broke loose. Hundreds of pax died in both a/c. NTSB got involved and all that, even though it occured in a foreign country.

So, after that long (and possibly wrong) narrative, here's the question: what is ATC clearance?

Thanks for the help, and again, sorry if I got anything wrong in the narrative (which I know I did).  :D



Offline davolijj

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ATC clearance?
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2006, 11:06:37 PM »
Here's a little more about that accident also.

From the Pilot/Controller Glossary:
AIR TRAFFIC CLEARANCE- An authorization by air traffic control for the purpose of preventing collision between known aircraft, for an aircraft to proceed under specified traffic conditions within controlled airspace. The pilot-in-command of an aircraft may not deviate from the provisions of a visual flight rules (VFR) or instrument flight rules (IFR) air traffic clearance except in an emergency or unless an amended clearance has been obtained. Additionally, the pilot may request a different clearance from that which has been issued by air traffic control (ATC) if information available to the pilot makes another course of action more practicable or if aircraft equipment limitations or company procedures forbid compliance with the clearance issued. Pilots may also request clarification or amendment, as appropriate, any time a clearance is not fully understood, or considered unacceptable because of safety of flight. Controllers should, in such instances and to the extent of operational practicality and safety, honor the pilot's request. 14 CFR Part 91.3(a) states: "The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft." THE PILOT IS RESPONSIBLE TO REQUEST AN AMENDED CLEARANCE if ATC issues a clearance that would cause a pilot to deviate from a rule or regulation, or in the pilot's opinion, would place the aircraft in jeopardy.

also...
CLEARED FOR TAKEOFF- ATC authorization for an aircraft to depart. It is predicated on known traffic and known physical airport conditions.

Offline Fra

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ATC clearance?
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2006, 04:26:50 AM »
I really don't have the time right now coz I'm running late, but this accident had a lot to do with using different langugage other than English between some pilots and controllers, but I'm not totaly sure.

Offline digger

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ATC clearance?
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2006, 06:54:13 AM »
Not to get off topic (but since JD pretty well answered the original question), just google " tenerife crash", and you'll get all sorts of information on that crash.

There was an interesting thread on Airdisaster.com that discussed in some detail the language issus of this accident.

http://www.airdisaster.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70862&page=1&pp=25&highlight=tenerife

Offline Cessna172

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ATC clearance?
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2006, 08:02:40 PM »
Davolijj,

Yep. That's the one. After reading that article, I now know that some of my facts were WAY off. I apologize. Thanks for that and the definitions as well.

Offline hopskip

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ATC clearance?
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2006, 09:08:43 PM »
Is ATC clearance the thing you usually get from Clearance delivery stations?


For instance

"*Callsign* you are cleared to the *airport* airport via *Departure* departure procedure, initial climb to *altitude* feet, expect *cruise altitude*, Squawk code *Transponder code*, Departures frequency is *First frequency after takeoff*"

Whereas Takeoff Clearance is more like

"*Callsign* winds are *heading* at *speed* knots, runway *runway number* you are cleared for takeoff"

Offline Fryy/Avocadoflight

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ATC clearance?
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2006, 09:35:28 PM »
I think some of you are thinking too far into this, clearance is just what the Air Traffic Controller is doing all the time, i.e. clearing you for pushback, clearing you for taxi, clearing you for takeoff, etc., Clearance Delivery is probably where its getting confusing, that is where you get your clearance for your "assigned" route. Anytime you are talking to a controller, your are getting permission(clearance) for whatever your looking to do. Hope this made sence...

Offline digger

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ATC clearance?
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2006, 09:49:13 PM »
Actually, both of those examples would fit the definition JD posted.

The difference is that what you are given by "Clearance delivery" may or may not match exactly the route you requested when you filed your flight plan. You'll sometimes hear, "(yada,yada, yada, up to a certain point in the route), then as filed..."

In that case, essentially they're saying, "you're *not* authorized to follow the route you filed for, but you *are* authorized to follow this one..."

Once that business has been taken care of, you can get on with the other "clearances", like the one for takeoff.

The essence of it is that the pilot is in command of the flight--ATC cannot tell the pilot what to do, only tell him what he is *authorized* to do. "Cleared for takeoff" doesn't mean the pilot *must* take off, only that he is now authorized to do so. Similarly, "cleared to land" doesn't mean that the pilot must land, only that ATC says it's ok for him to do so.
(Although if they're busy and you don't do what they've cleared you to do, when they want you to, they get really annoyed.)

On the other hand, if the pilot does something he's *not* cleared to do, like flying faster than cleared to, or at a different altitude or heading, then there'd *better* be a life or death reason for it....

Offline davolijj

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ATC clearance?
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2006, 10:08:25 PM »
Quote from: hopskip
Is ATC clearance the thing you usually get from Clearance delivery stations....?


What you're referring to is called a departure clearance.  It is also referred to as a pre-departure clearance, IFR clearance, or pre-taxi clearance.  It usually consists of a clearance limit (usually the destination airport), a route of flight (ie....as filed), an assigned altitude etc., departure instructions, DP or SID, departure frequency information, and a beacon code (squawk).

But as digger and fryy pointed out, the term ATC clearance is much more broad in nature and extends to virtually every aspect of Air Traffic Control.

Offline Cessna172

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ATC clearance?
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2006, 10:06:15 PM »
davolijj, digger, Fryy, and hopskip,

Ahh...yes. That clears EVERYTHING up for me. Thanks a bunch! :D

Offline Claude Christie

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ATC clearance?
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2006, 06:07:29 PM »
That accident occurred in the 1970s at Tenerife, Canary Islands between a KLM and PAN AM 747.  Still have the Time Magazine with the info. on that terrible disaster.  The KLM started their takeoff before the PAN AM aircraft had cleared the runway.