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Author Topic: ARE PILOTS HAPPY ABOUT THIS?  (Read 9657 times)

Offline RV1

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ARE PILOTS HAPPY ABOUT THIS?
« on: January 09, 2008, 05:31:05 PM »
Just a question to the pilots out there: Recently, (as recently as last night) we've gotten pilot reports about things like moderate icing and moderate turbulence. We've passed these on to Lockmart FS and never saw them disseminated. Some of the ones we have seen that have been put out are 1.5 hours old for moderate icing! If you are flying into possible icing/turbulence conditions, wouldn't you want to know about it  before rather than AFTER you flew through it? Just thought I'd pose the question...
  Happy flying.



Offline zmeatc

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Re: ARE PILOTS HAPPY ABOUT THIS?
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2008, 07:10:21 PM »
Best thing to do is pass it on to center/tracon. We pass it right to are wx people which is sent to EVERY area in the center. Here's how good flight service is: I was training on my two low sectors D-sides and FSS called asking for a clearence. Due to traffic, I gave him an EDC time. When the traffic passed (before the EDC time was up) I called FSS to give the clearence. The guy who picked up had no clue about this aircraft. So after 15 min or so, I still had not gotten a hold of this guy. Meaning this aircraft was sitting on the ground waiting. I had to ask the radar controller to ask an aircraft flying over the airport to try and get a hold of this aircraft and tell him to call us over the freq. (at this airport we can hear aircraft on the ground) He was there and we gave him his clearence. Next time, I'm going to put FSS on hold for as long as it takes!!!

Offline KSYR-pjr

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Re: ARE PILOTS HAPPY ABOUT THIS?
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2008, 10:21:55 PM »
I have been flying steadily since 2002 and recall several times giving PIREPs to the "old" flight service that never made it into the system.   Nevertheless, that doesn't excuse the "new FSS."

Two points:  Consider giving the PIREPS directly to the controllers since they will immediately offer that information to other pilots in their airspace.  I heard from a controller that a PIREP to a controller is only good for twenty minutes and then it is deemed too old to pass on.

Secondly, contact FAA's FSS complaint line, at (888) FLT-SRVC (358-7782), and report the failure of these critical PIREPs to get into the system.  By contract all PIREPs are supposed to get into the system within 15 seconds of the report being taken by FSS.

Offline RV1

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Re: ARE PILOTS HAPPY ABOUT THIS?
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2008, 10:54:44 PM »
      Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough... At the Air Traffic Facility I WORK at, I get pireps from pilots that I am WORKING, pass them on to FSS, only to never see them put out in a GI message. Some of the GIs I do see are over an hour old for what I would consider important info for a pilot. I was wondering if the PILOTS are at all concerned with the job that LM is doing as FSS. We pass the pireps to the adjacent sectors and facilities AND to FSS, but it seems that it dies there. I have gotten clearence requests from FSS for airports that I had to look up to find what part of the country they were in.
       This is more of a 'things to consider' post since there is still a great cry to privatize ATC.

Offline KSYR-pjr

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Re: ARE PILOTS HAPPY ABOUT THIS?
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2008, 10:44:30 AM »
      Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough...

Yep, I read your post too fast and thought it was from a pilot's perspective, not a controller's.  Nonetheless, my second point still stands.  I would think that controllers, too, could call the FAA complaint line anonymously to report this problem.  Hell, it would be added fuel to the fire regarding how poorly LockMart is running the FSS show these days. 

To answer your question directly, a failure of icing, tops, and turbulence PIREPS to make it into the system is especially discouraging since that information is used to flight plan or cancel a flight before departing or change strategies while in the air (at least for us small aircraft that are dangerously affected by these weather features).

This is more of a 'things to consider' post since there is still a great cry to privatize ATC.

Really?  With all respect when you open a post with the subject, "ARE PILOTS HAPPY ABOUT THIS?" it seems much more than a 'things to consider' post.  As an active IFR pilot in the system I am definitely not for ATC privatization but help to pull me out of my  naive world here:  I have not seen this great cry over the past few months.  Who is doing the crying?  Politicians?  Certainly not pilots or controllers, I hope.   It seems to me that this privatization push had died down over the last half of 2007, but not being in the game from within my observation could be way off.






Offline RV1

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Re: ARE PILOTS HAPPY ABOUT THIS?
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2008, 01:03:07 PM »
It was definetly my intent to stir up pilots about the pirep/Lockmart situation. My reasoning is that you may not be aware of what is taking place. How would you know that pireps aren't being put into the system, or if they are 1 1/2 hours later, unless someone tells you? This is a prelude to a catastrophe. I know what icing and turbulence can do to airplanes. It is my guess that when people start to realize what is happening/has happened to a vital part of the NAS, then they just might get a little upset and ask their representatives to do something about it.
     Although it may not be in the limelight, privatization is ALWAYS on the agenda. The co-location of tracons/approach controls across the nation leads to the downgrading of the towers and subsequently their being contracted out.
     Let's try this scenario: Convince congress and the airlines that you need a major equipment upgrade to keep pace with traffic. (We'll call this NEXGEN). Reduce the number of qualified technicians able to maintain/fix equipment. Convince anyone listening that the FAA must run like a business. Using inaccurate data, have a "Think Tank" organization, continuosly speak out how other nations have a privatized ATC system and how it costs less, is more effecient, better for the user, etc,. Finally, reduce the number of controllers nationwide so much so that as a Govt organization, you won't be able to play catch up.    You have now set up the perfect storm for LM, Raytheon, Boeing, or whoever to come in as the knight on white steed saving the day and the flying public.
     For anyone looking at NEXGEN as the saving grace for the future of ATC, consider this; a report came out in the early '90s talking about using satellite based ATC, but that the RADAR sites around the perimeter of the U.S. should remain intact, allowing us to protect and monitor our boarders. What if a terrorist is already in the country?

Offline rpd

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Re: ARE PILOTS HAPPY ABOUT THIS?
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2008, 02:58:00 PM »
Let me begin by saying I am by no means a LockMart supporter. The absence of a GI message does not mean it is not in the system.  In the system means it is entered into the computer and available for weather briefings from FSS, DUATS, or the WSI system.  FSS (new or old) does not put out the GI messages.

The only PIREPS I see on GI messages are for severe/extreme turbulence and I think the center weather unit puts them in directly. 

Offline KSYR-pjr

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Re: ARE PILOTS HAPPY ABOUT THIS?
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2008, 09:40:06 PM »
How would you know that pireps aren't being put into the system, or if they are 1 1/2 hours later, unless someone tells you?

For a couple of years I was one of those aviation geeks who would run to a computer after I landed (either at home or at my customer's location) and check the ADDs website to see my PIREPS.  That's how I used to tell whether they were being disseminated or not.  Not so much these days, though.

For longer flights I would often get my own PIREP read back to me by a different FSS specialist later in the flight.  There typically aren't a lot of PIREPs in the Northeast US, relatively speaking.

Offline RV1

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Re: ARE PILOTS HAPPY ABOUT THIS?
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2008, 08:11:26 AM »
Rpd's comments should open up another round of discussion. Are pilots happy that the only pireps being sent out would be severe,etc. What may be light to a DC9 in the climb out may be severe to a C310! How could we justify not telling a pilot about icing/turbulence due to it not being extreme. Also, if the only GI's you're seing are severe/extreme, then maybe you aren't getting all the ones we get. As I stated before, we've gotten reports about moderate icing 1.5 hours late, but we still got it. I've seen urgent pireps stating 'OAT @ 6000 -5C, smooth, neg ice'.
     From one of our trainees/ex FSS, if FSS receives pirep info that is missing one piece of data, say the Outside Air Temperature (OAT), and he enters the pirep, the computer will reject it and will make warning flag about entry, and his supe will then talk to him about improper entry of a pirep! He said that you have two options, enter it as received, but in remarks put 'transcribed verbatim as received' and the computer will still reject it, or file the pirep in the round file container/recycle bin. Either way, the pirep never goes through. How about flight plans? It was stated that at times, the computer will dump the last hour or two of information. Everything, flightplans, weather briefs, notams etc,. All dumped with no record that they existed. Trying to build a computer system that will do all that FSS does is extremely tough. Trying to build one that will seperate planes without controllers may take a few years... Can you imagine the liability placed on a company that creates a system for ATC should there be a glitch?
       This is more a problem with Lockmart and their computer system then it is with the LM staff. I applaud the FSSers and the work that they do.

Offline w0x0f

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Re: ARE PILOTS HAPPY ABOUT THIS?
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2008, 10:47:55 AM »
I received this from AOPA today via their email update service.

w0x0f

FAA, Lockheed need to hear about flight service glitches
By AOPA ePublishing staff

They’re listening, but pilots aren’t reporting. The FAA and Lockheed Martin created the toll-free hotline (888/FLT-SRVC) to discover glitches pilots are experiencing with flight service and then use the information to fix them. The problem is that pilots are not reporting their complaints or compliments through the hotline.

“This past summer, calls were topping 130 to 150 a week. Now the number of complaints ranges from 10 to 30 a week, on average,” said Melissa Rudinger, AOPA vice president of regulatory affairs. “As Phil Boyer heard at this week’s Pilot Town Meeting in Florida and from calls coming directly to AOPA instead of the hotline, we know more than 30 pilots a week are experiencing problems with flight service.

“We demanded this toll-free number as a way to help fix the flight service station (FSS) system, but it won’t be effective unless pilots start reporting what’s working and what’s not. The FAA and Lockheed can’t fix glitches they don’t know exist.”

Lockheed and the FAA have assured AOPA that they are working to improve the system and want to know what problems pilots are experiencing—dropped calls, long hold times, poor briefer knowledge, or other snags.

In addition to reporting on your telephone briefing experience, you can take another step to smooth the process. Download AOPA’s AFSS Telephone Briefing Flight Planning Tips to have handy every time you call FSS. The card provides shortcuts, tips for helping the briefer give you the information you need, ways to make sure your flight plan has been filed, and the number to call to expedite your IFR clearance.

January 10, 2008

Offline rpd

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Re: ARE PILOTS HAPPY ABOUT THIS?
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2008, 01:08:38 PM »
Yeah, I am familiar with the old FAA system called Model 1 Full Capacity (M1FC).  It was 1970's technology that AOPA said was no good.   Lockheed came in and spouted off about the great FS21 computer.  They were the savior!!!  And AOPA bought into the whole scheme.

FS21 is a failure.  I could enter a partial PIREP into the M1FC.  It would transmit without a "flag" to the supervisor.   As long as I hit enter, all FP info would be sent.  All PIREPS along a route were available to the briefer. 

I have been told by friends who now work for Lockmart they have to use ADDS as a brifing tool since the FS21 is crap. 

I just hope the stupid FAA has learned a lesson about contracting out ATC services.

Offline KSYR-pjr

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Re: ARE PILOTS HAPPY ABOUT THIS?
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2008, 02:34:04 PM »
Yeah, I am familiar with the old FAA system called Model 1 Full Capacity (M1FC).  It was 1970's technology that AOPA said was no good.   Lockheed came in and spouted off about the great FS21 computer.  They were the savior!!!  And AOPA bought into the whole scheme.

AOPA may have faults but if there weren't an AOPA, GA would have probably died years ago.  And without GA many towered facilities would have closed long ago due to a cessation of activity, sending a lot of controllers to other lines of work.

There is no disputing the fact that the new FSS has had many problems since going live and that the entire transition was very poorly handled.  However, implying that AOPA, an agency on the outside looking in, was at fault is disingenuous.   We were sold a lemon with a very shiny, sexy exterior and we all have the FAA to ultimately thank for it.

edit: swapped 'and' for 'an'  - no idea where that 'd' came from...
« Last Edit: January 11, 2008, 11:20:42 PM by KSYR-pjr »

Offline KSYR-pjr

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Re: ARE PILOTS HAPPY ABOUT THIS?
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2008, 02:39:41 PM »
I received this from AOPA today via their email update service.

w0x0f

FAA, Lockheed need to hear about flight service glitches
By AOPA ePublishing staff

They’re listening, but pilots aren’t reporting.

Like water rushing downhill, we find alternate paths when the main one is blocked.  A lot of pilots I know have given up on the new FSS for most of their preflight duties.  Personally I have a level of compassion for the low level employees who answer the phones since many of them are decent, hard working and honest workers.   Therefore I still try to use them when possible.  In my experience the service has gotten better since early spring 2007, but that is an outsider's perspective.