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Air Traffic Monitoring => Listener Forum => Topic started by: busy on November 08, 2006, 12:27:15 AM

Title: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: busy on November 08, 2006, 12:27:15 AM
Can you share your own experience with me?
Why do most English-speaking pilots while flying over Russia say "affirmative" whereas (as far as I know) "affirm" is preferred not to be confused with "negative"? Can't make that out.

Thanks in advance.

anna
Title: Re: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: Acey on November 08, 2006, 12:36:56 AM
"Affirmative" is the offical term.  Those that say "affirm" are simply shortening the term.
Title: Re: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: digger on November 08, 2006, 12:40:33 AM
The "PILOT/CONTROLLER GLOSSARY" published by the FAA (http://www.faa.gov/ATPUBS/PCG/INDEX.HTM (http://www.faa.gov/ATPUBS/PCG/INDEX.HTM)) lists "Affirmative", but does not list "affirm". That leads me to believe that, at least as far as the FAA goes, "affirm" falls short of being "proper phraseology". (Although I have heard it used on frequency')
Title: Re: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: Lukas Kaufmann on November 18, 2006, 01:59:45 PM
That apparently is different from region to region...the JAA says it should be Affirm and not Affirmative...I guess everyone does it as he likes :roll:
Title: Re: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: michaelawai on November 18, 2006, 08:32:11 PM
"Affirmative" is the offical term.  Those that say "affirm" are simply shortening the term.

i was taught during my PPL training in radio phraseology by one of the heads in ATC in the Piarco FIR,, "affirmative" has been replace by "affirm" to avoid conflict with "negative", due to an accident involving mis-communication of the words "affirmative" and "nevegative" due to a slip of the mic, it is a published change. Air Traffic Controllers should be aware of this change.
Title: Re: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: w0x0f on November 19, 2006, 11:18:42 AM

i was taught during my PPL training in radio phraseology by one of the heads in ATC in the Piarco FIR,, "affirmative" has been replace by "affirm" to avoid conflict with "negative", due to an accident involving mis-communication of the words "affirmative" and "nevegative" due to a slip of the mic, it is a published change. Air Traffic Controllers should be aware of this change.

NEGATIVE
Title: Re: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: KSYR-pjr on November 19, 2006, 07:43:47 PM
i was taught during my PPL training in radio phraseology by one of the heads in ATC in the Piarco FIR,, "affirmative" has been replace by "affirm" to avoid conflict with "negative", due to an accident involving mis-communication of the words "affirmative" and "nevegative" due to a slip of the mic, it is a published change. Air Traffic Controllers should be aware of this change.

Not in this US, it hasn't been replaced.

Affirmative is still the proper word to use to answer in the affirmative.
Title: Re: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: busy on November 19, 2006, 11:08:02 PM
Strange, isn't it?
Such a simple word and so many people have different opinions about its usage. Though someone could think it is not important...
Anyway here in Russia we keep to "Affirm".

Thanks,
Anna
Title: Re: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: michaelawai on November 20, 2006, 08:50:09 PM
Funny.. cause i also read it in a US aviation magazine about the conflict of the words "affirmative" and "negative",, in the radios exam here,, if we say "affirmative", its WRONG..

Do me a favour and re-check the revised documents on radio telephony.. see what you guys find..

"Affirm" all the way..
Title: Re: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: digger on November 20, 2006, 09:39:52 PM
The Pilot/Controller glossary that I posted the link to above is dated August of this year.
Title: Re: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: PHL Approach on November 20, 2006, 10:45:27 PM
Funny.. cause i also read it in a US aviation magazine about the conflict of the words "affirmative" and "negative",, in the radios exam here,, if we say "affirmative", its WRONG..

Do me a favour and re-check the revised documents on radio telephony.. see what you guys find..

"Affirm" all the way..



Quote from: FAA AIM-August 2006-Chapter 4-2-3 Section C
Acknowledge with your aircraft identification, either at the beginning or at the end of your transmission, and one of the words "Wilco," "Roger," "Affirmative," "Negative," or other appropriate remarks; e.g., "PIPER TWO ONE FOUR LIMA, ROGER."

I would follow an FAA document over a flying publication any day.
Title: Re: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: michaelawai on November 22, 2006, 12:24:35 PM
Funny.. cause i also read it in a US aviation magazine about the conflict of the words "affirmative" and "negative",, in the radios exam here,, if we say "affirmative", its WRONG..

Do me a favour and re-check the revised documents on radio telephony.. see what you guys find..

"Affirm" all the way..



Quote from: FAA AIM-August 2006-Chapter 4-2-3 Section C
Acknowledge with your aircraft identification, either at the beginning or at the end of your transmission, and one of the words "Wilco," "Roger," "Affirmative," "Negative," or other appropriate remarks; e.g., "PIPER TWO ONE FOUR LIMA, ROGER."

I would follow an FAA document over a flying publication any day.


i said DOCUMENTS.. not the magazine.. check it.. im pretty sure ud see a change.. cause if thats in our documents down here,, it must be up there as the whole world falls under the same radio telephony under ICAO...
Title: Re: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: PHL Approach on November 22, 2006, 04:41:50 PM
Quote from: FAA AIM-August 2006-Chapter 4-2-3 Section C
Acknowledge with your aircraft identification, either at the beginning or at the end of your transmission, and one of the words "Wilco," "Roger," "Affirmative," "Negative," or other appropriate remarks; e.g., "PIPER TWO ONE FOUR LIMA, ROGER."

I would follow an FAA document over a flying publication any day.

i said DOCUMENTS.. not the magazine.. check it.. im pretty sure ud see a change.. cause if thats in our documents down here,, it must be up there as the whole world falls under the same radio telephony under ICAO...


Quote from: michaelawai
cause i also read it in a US aviation magazine about the conflict of the words

See whats in the bold....
Title: Re: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: michaelawai on November 22, 2006, 05:06:22 PM
no wonder there are so many incidents in the US..

God be with you all
Title: Re: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: aerosnoop on November 22, 2006, 08:15:04 PM
michael I think you are blowing this way out of proportion. The Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM) states clearly that use of the word "Affirmative" is correct. Thats about the most official document that you'll find in the U.S. next to the Federal Aviation Regulations. As long as I live in the U.S. I'm going to follow what they suggest.
Title: Re: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: digger on November 23, 2006, 12:47:56 AM
Quote
no wonder there are so many incidents in the US..

God be with you all

If you can point out one where the difference between "affirm" and "affirmative" was identified as a factor, your post might have some merit.
Title: Re: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: michaelawai on November 23, 2006, 06:16:39 AM
im not blowin anything anywhere..

im not from the US..  im under british rules

i fall under the british system.. but if the FAA wants to keep confusing ppl between affirmative and negative with a simple mic clip,, thats them..
far as i know.. british is more recognised.. so im sticking to affirm..

now im goin to eat my ice cream
Title: Re: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: w0x0f on November 24, 2006, 10:50:25 PM

i fall under the british system.. but if the FAA wants to keep confusing ppl between affirmative and negative with a simple mic clip,, thats them..
far as i know.. british is more recognised.. so im sticking to affirm..


A cure for clipped transmissions:

http://www.avweb.com/news/sayagain/182633-1.html

Nothing beats doing it right the first time.  I recommend all of the articles in this series.

By the way...It's Affirmative.

w0x0f
Title: Re: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: michaelawai on November 25, 2006, 06:16:08 PM
hey i understand if in the US its affirmative.. no problem with that..

but in other parts of the world.. like in the caribbean.. and as busy said in russia (i believe)

its "affirm"
Title: Re: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: busy on November 27, 2006, 05:51:10 PM
Hi
As I understand as soon as you leave US you fall under international laws (so that is ICAO ones). In Appendix 5 to Doc 4444 you can see AFFIRM but this section describes CPDLC message set though I don't think that it must differ from radio communication.   


Thanks,
Busy
Title: Re: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: busy on November 28, 2006, 08:46:53 PM
I am sorry I do not listen to lots of controllers I am speaking about foreign (including native and non-native English speakers) pilots flying over Russian airspace. They all say AFFIRMATIVE. And I guess there are plenty of examples at this forum as well. Just listen to the "SORRY WHAT WAS THE FREQUENCY?" at this forum and you will hear that.

Thanks,
Busy
Title: Re: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: way-out on March 29, 2007, 09:27:15 AM
ICAO (of which the USA is a member) prescribes "Affirm" as the standard word.
However, most people, controllers alike still use Affirmative  which was officially abandonded ages ago.
 See ICAO Annex 10, Vol 2, chapter 5, Which prescribes required Standards.
Bye,
Way-out.
Title: Re: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: w0x0f on March 29, 2007, 09:35:49 AM
ICAO (of which the USA is a member) prescribes "Affirm" as the standard word.
However, most people, controllers alike still use Affirmative  which was officially abandonded ages ago.
 See ICAO Annex 10, Vol 2, chapter 5, Which prescribes required Standards.
Bye,
Way-out.

Until this changes http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/pcg/

Controllers in the US will say affirmative and be correct.  Affirmative may have been abandoned by ICAO, but controllers in the US must follow FAA rules and regulations. 

w0x0f
Title: Re: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: tyketto on March 29, 2007, 01:22:11 PM
This has a simple solution, everyone.

The FAA has listed "affirmative" in its documentation. That's fine. ICAO uses "affirm" as its standard.

As the ICAO is international, that doesn't mean that a country could have some other underlying standard or rule they want their controllers and pilots to follow. In this case, the FAA does have something underlying from what ICAO prescribes.

Work with me on this. :) Say you live in a country which has a law that states that you must throw away your straw wrapper immediately after you open it. But there is also an international law that states that you must wait until your drink is finished before throwing away the straw wrapper.

Which is going to take precedence? Laws relative to your locale, of course. That doesn't mean it trumps international law, but that international law is supplemental to local law. Such is the same with "affirm" vs. "Affirmative". Both are right, depending on where you are and which regulations apply.

So as a pilot, if you fly from Gatwick to Vegas (VIR43, VIR44), you should probably be up to speed with both regulations in both countries, as well as ICAO regs, as ALL would apply; but local ones to that region would take precedence.

BL.
Title: Re: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: XTSKid on March 29, 2007, 04:16:11 PM
no wonder there are so many incidents in the US..

God be with you all

 :roll: :roll: :roll:

Care to explain what you mean by this?
Title: Re: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: athaker on March 29, 2007, 10:36:38 PM
you can always just do it JFK style and say "yes"  :-)
Title: Re: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: CntrllrATC on March 30, 2007, 04:11:38 PM
I've been an Air Traffic Controller (USA) for 24 years now and I have never heard of an incident involving confusion between "Affirmative" and "Negative".  And I have never heard of the FAA proposal to change to "Affirm".  The consonants in each word make it  distinct. Maybe thats where foreign english pronounciations are causing a problem.
Title: Re: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: rpd on March 30, 2007, 04:36:50 PM
I am a US controller also.....Why is this in the clips forum??????
Title: Re: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: digger on March 30, 2007, 06:26:25 PM
Quote
Why is this in the clips forum???

Good question. Although it took two pages of posts before anyone noticed it, or thought to ask. Interesting to note that it was a controller who caught the error...    :-) (And that a number of other controllers failed to...)
Title: Re: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: CntrllrATC on March 30, 2007, 09:51:10 PM
LOL....I keep airplanes apart....not forums.... :lol:
Title: Re: Affirmative or affirm?
Post by: Jason on March 30, 2007, 09:55:55 PM
I am a US controller also.....Why is this in the clips forum??????

Good point.  I moved it to the Listener Forum.

Thanks,