Author Topic: Acronyms & Abbreviations  (Read 19938 times)

Offline TrixieKQ

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Re: Acronyms & Abbreviations
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2007, 02:14:17 PM »

So, do you as a controller interpret, "I have him on the fishfinder," to mean the same thing as "negative traffic?"   It seems to me from the other side of the radio that controllers would continue to provide traffic callouts until they heard "traffic in sight."


It would depend on the circumstances, traffic calls are a relatively low priorty.  I would probably continue to call traffic if I wasn't busy or if one of the aircraft were climbing or descending toward the other one.  Climbing or descending aircraft are more likely to cause a TCAS alert because there is no way to assure TCAS what altitude the aircraft is assigned.

Could you elaborate more on this please? From what I was told (and this being from both controllers at Vandenberg and Nellis AFBs plus a controller at SCT), in Class A airspace, it was always the controller's responsibility for maintaining separation of the aircrafts (outside of being underneath the transition altitude).

BL.

I think it's pretty clear if you read the good book:

Quote from: 7110.65R  Capter 7
Chapter 7. Visual

Section 1. General


7-1-1. CLASS A AIRSPACE RESTRICTIONS

Do not apply visual separation or issue VFR or "VFR-on-top" clearances in Class A airspace.


Maybe that's a recent change but as far as I know the restriction is that you can't use it.


 :-( AWW, man!  I knew someone was going to want me to back it up.  I'll get back to you.  I promise to eat my words if I can't find my proof.

Peace
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Trainee:  "Yeah, you *$#* up."

Offline Jason

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Re: Acronyms & Abbreviations
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2007, 02:17:07 PM »
traffic calls are a relatively low priorty.

...until that traffic crashes into you or vice versa.  I always treat traffic pointouts with high priority, they even saved my life once.  From the crew and pax perspective (someone inside the airplane in potential danger), they're very important.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2007, 02:19:11 PM by Jason »

Offline TrixieKQ

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Re: Acronyms & Abbreviations
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2007, 03:15:47 PM »

...until that traffic crashes into you or vice versa.  I always treat traffic pointouts with high priority, they even saved my life once.  From the crew and pax perspective (someone inside the airplane in potential danger), they're very important.

I am absolutely not saying that traffic calls are unimportant!  I was making the point that higher priorities exist.  If I have to choose between calling traffic between two aircraft that are legally separated and some other type of control instruction, I am going to issue my instructions first.  After I have ensured the safety and separation of all my aircraft, then I will start calling traffic.

I got paid "to provide for the safe, orderly and expeditious flow of aircraft..." in that order.  (I know you know that, I'm not trying to be contentious.  I'm just trying to lay out my thought processes.)  I was given a set of rules to follow which gave me the tools to do my job.  I was trained to use my judgement to apply those rules, and sometimes (often) I had to use my judgement to prioritze what needed to be done.  Some things are simply more important than others.

And now, may I have a drum roll please...

I found what I was looking for, but it is not technically visual separation.

Quote

5-5-7. PASSING OR DIVERGING

b. EN ROUTE. Vertical separation between aircraft may be discontinued when they are on opposite courses as defined in para 1-2-2, Course Definitions; and

1. You are in communications with both aircraft involved; and

2. You tell the pilot of one aircraft about the other aircraft, including position, direction, type; and

3. One pilot reports having seen the other aircraft and that the aircraft have passed each other; and

4. You have observed that the radar targets have passed each other; and

5. You have advised the pilots if either aircraft is classified as a heavy jet/B757 aircraft.

6. Although vertical separation may be discontinued, the requirements of para 5-5-4, Minima, subparas e and f must be applied when operating behind a heavy jet/B757.

EXAMPLE-
"Traffic, twelve o'clock, Boeing Seven Twenty Seven, opposite direction. Do you have it in sight?"

(If the answer is in the affirmative):

"Report passing the traffic."

(When pilot reports passing the traffic and the radar targets confirm that the traffic has passed, issue appropriate control instructions.)



You'll notice that there is no mention about flight levels in this paragraph, but it could only be applicable in flight levels because regular visual separation can be used below Class A.

Peace 

Controller:  "You know what happens when you assume something, right?"

Trainee:  "Yeah, you *$#* up."

Offline davolijj

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Re: Acronyms & Abbreviations
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2007, 03:23:34 PM »
Alright KQ, I'll buy that...nicely done.
Regards
JD

Offline TrixieKQ

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Re: Acronyms & Abbreviations
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2007, 03:28:05 PM »
Thanks.

I know I'm getting old, but it is nice to know my kids haven't fried all my brain cells. :wink:
Controller:  "You know what happens when you assume something, right?"

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Offline Jason

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Re: Acronyms & Abbreviations
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2007, 04:35:28 PM »
I am absolutely not saying that traffic calls are unimportant!  I was making the point that higher priorities exist.  If I have to choose between calling traffic between two aircraft that are legally separated and some other type of control instruction, I am going to issue my instructions first.  After I have ensured the safety and separation of all my aircraft, then I will start calling traffic.

I got paid "to provide for the safe, orderly and expeditious flow of aircraft..." in that order.  (I know you know that, I'm not trying to be contentious.  I'm just trying to lay out my thought processes.)  I was given a set of rules to follow which gave me the tools to do my job.  I was trained to use my judgement to apply those rules, and sometimes (often) I had to use my judgement to prioritze what needed to be done.  Some things are simply more important than others.

Thanks for the clarification, I understand where you're coming from now.  That makes absolute sense, hence why traffic advisories are usually given on a workload permitting basis.  Depends on the situation, but there certainly could be other higher priorities as you pointed out.

Thanks,

Offline tyketto

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Re: Acronyms & Abbreviations
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2007, 06:31:43 PM »

I found what I was looking for, but it is not technically visual separation.

Quote

5-5-7. PASSING OR DIVERGING


You'll notice that there is no mention about flight levels in this paragraph, but it could only be applicable in flight levels because regular visual separation can be used below Class A.

Peace 


Got it now. It is mainly relative to vertical separation rather than lateral/horizontal separation, as that is still covered by 5-5-2.e, plus is used with passing/diverging aircraft.

Like Dave said, thanks, and very well done.

BL.

Offline davolijj

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Re: Acronyms & Abbreviations
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2007, 06:53:19 PM »
Got it now. It is mainly relative to vertical separation rather than lateral/horizontal separation, as that is still covered by 5-5-2.e, plus is used with passing/diverging aircraft.

Like Dave said, thanks, and very well done.

BL.

Visual in the centers pretty much works the same way....vertical is provided until the aircraft see eachother then discontinued.  We have to use 5 miles so if two aircraft are converging who are not vertically separated, it would be pretty bold to issue traffic and hope they see eachother before lateral no longer exists....especially at such distances.  Longitudinal?  Well maybe for resolving an overtake, but I see it much more often with respect to discontinuing vertical.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2007, 06:56:52 PM by davolijj »
Regards
JD

Offline CntrllrATC

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Re: Acronyms & Abbreviations
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2007, 07:46:53 PM »
Just a quick question....are you saying Enroute vertical separation is discontinued before the aircraft have reported passing eachother?
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Offline davolijj

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Re: Acronyms & Abbreviations
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2007, 08:01:57 PM »
Just a quick question....are you saying Enroute vertical separation is discontinued before the aircraft have reported passing eachother?

When we're using visual separation yes.
Regards
JD

Offline CntrllrATC

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Re: Acronyms & Abbreviations
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2007, 08:21:45 PM »
Sorry.....was thinking you were talking about Class A airspace....oops....lol
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