LiveATC Discussion Forums
Aviation => Aviation Accidents/Incidents => Topic started by: tyketto on March 07, 2014, 08:55:57 PM
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Being reported all over the newswires: CNN, AP, NPR, NBC, Reuters, BBC. Link below is from FlightAware:
http://flightaware.com/squawks/view/1/recently/popular/40633/Malaysia_Airlines_says_flight_MH370_from_Kuala_Lumpur_to_Beijing_lost_contact_with_air_traffic_control
Reports are that it lost lost contact with Subang ATC, but only had 7.5 hours of fuel onboard. It's a 6 hour flight for its route: WMKK-ZBAA (Kuala Lumpur - Beijing). So you may want to have a look in the archives for any activity for MAS370. No doubt the media is looking for this right now.
BL.
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Allegedly lost contact in Vietnam airspace. We don't have coverage there yet.
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Prayers for all involved. What a tragedy.
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Official statement from Malaysia Airlines:
Ladies and Gentlemen, we are deeply saddened this morning with the news on MH370.
Malaysia Airlines confirms that flight MH370 had lost contact with Subang Air Traffic Control at 2.40am, today. There has been speculation that the aircraft has landed at Nanming. We are working to verify the authenticity of the report and others.
Flight MH370 was operated on a Boeing 777-200 aircraft. It departed Kuala Lumpur at 12.41 am earlier this morning bound for Beijing. The aircraft was scheduled to land at Beijing International Airport at 6.30am local Beijing time.
The flight was carrying a total number of 239 passengers and crew – comprising 227 passengers (including 2 infants), 12 crew members. The passengers were of 14 different nationalities - citizens from:-
1. China – 152 plus 1 infant
2. Malaysia - 38
3. Indonesia - 12
4. Australia - 7
5. France - 3
6. United States of America – 3 pax plus 1 infant
7. New Zealand - 2
8. Ukraine - 2
9. Canada - 2
10. Russia - 1
11. Italy - 1
12. Taiwan - 1
13. Netherlands - 1
14. Austria - 1
This flight was a code share with China Southern Airlines.
We are working with authorities who have activated their Search and Rescue team to locate the aircraft.
Our team is currently calling the next-of-kin of passengers and crew.
The flight was piloted by Captain Zaharie Ahmad Shah, a Malaysian aged 53. He has a total flying hours of 18,365hours. He joined Malaysia Airlines in 1981. First officer, Fariq Ab.Hamid, a Malaysian, is aged 27. He has a total flying hours of 2,763 hours. He joined Malaysia Airlines in 2007.
Our focus now is to work with the emergency responders and authorities and mobilize its full support. Our thoughts and prayers are with all affected passengers and crew and their family members.
The airline will provide regular updates on the situation. The public may contact +603 7884 1234. For media queries, kindly contact +603 8777 5698/ +603 8787 1276.
Next-of-kin may head to the Support Facility Building at KLIA’s South Support Zone. For directions, call 03 8787 1269.
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Signal apparently detected. Maybe ELT or pingers on the black boxes?
http://www.china.org.cn/world/2014-03/08/content_31714878.htm
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The guardian is now reporting the signal detection story is incorrect.
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News reports from Vietnam Military Command that the plane had crashed at 153 miles south of Phu quoc island . Vietnam's navy already started S & R but no news on survivors yet.
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Allegedly lost contact in Vietnam airspace. We don't have coverage there yet.
True, but since the flight originated from Kuala Lumpur, we would at least have the departure covered, at least to see if there was anything reported out of the ordinary there..
EDIT: User at FlightAware stated that the aircraft had lost contact while still in Malaysian airspace, and crashed in Malaysian airspace, before it entered Vietnam airspace. user is based in Saigon. So if the WMKK feed covers the entire FIR, we might have something.
BL.
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This is funny and weird the Malaysia transport minister says there is no signs of Malaysia Airlines plane wreckage; denies reports plane crashed off Vietnam the plane is a Boeing 777-200ER aircraft
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This is funny and weird the Malaysia transport minister says there is no signs of Malaysia Airlines plane wreckage; denies reports plane crashed off Vietnam the plane is a Boeing 777-200ER aircraft
I caught that as well; Vietnam says that the plane crashed and they've identified where, and Malaysia denies it. Ton of confusion going on here.
BL.
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Looks like no one really knows where the plane is just heard Philippines is sending out its navy to search for the plane , Malaysia and Vietnam's navies are already searching for the plane now i hear that China is also sending out it's navy .
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Updated statement From Malaysia Airlines
Saturday, March 08, 04:20 PM MYT +0800 Media Statement - MH370 Incident released at 4.20pm
Sepang, 8 March 2014: Malaysia Airlines is still unable to establish any contact or determine the whereabouts of flight MH370. Earlier today, Subang ATC had lost contact with the aircraft at 2.40am. The last known position of MH370 before it disappeared off the radar was 065515 North (longitude) and 1033443 East (latitude).
We are still trying to locate the current location of the flight based on the last known position of the aircraft. We are working with the International search and rescue teams in trying to locate the aircraft. So far, we have not received any emergency signals or distress messages from MH370. We are working with authorities and assure that all sources are deployed to assist with the search and rescue mission.
The passenger manifest will not be released until all families of the passengers have been informed. The flight was carrying a total number of 239 passengers and crew – comprising 227 passengers (including 2 infants) and 12 crew members.
We are deploying our “Go Team” to Beijing which will depart Kuala Lumpur International Airport at 4.30pm with a team of caregivers and volunteers to assist the family members of the passengers.
The passengers are of 14 different nationalities. All crew on-board are Malaysians.
Please take note that the earlier statement did not include the number of Indian nationals. This was due to confusion between the country code of Indonesia and India.
The below table shows the latest number of passengers and their nationalities:-
Nationality
Total
China/Taiwan 154 including infant
Malaysia 38
India 5
Indonesia 7
Australia 6
France 4
USA 3 including infant
New Zealand 2
Ukraine 2
Canada 2
Russian 1
Italy 1
Netherlands 1
Austrian 1
Our focus now is to work with the emergency responders and authorities and mobilize our full support.
Our thoughts and prayers are with all affected passengers and crew and their family members.
The public may contact +603 7884 1234.
For media queries, kindly contact +603 8777 5698/ +603 8787 1276.
The airline will provide regular updates on the situation. There are many unvalidated reports out in the media and Malaysia Airlines strongly urges the media and the public at large to only report from official statements from Malaysia Airlines and the Government of Malaysia.
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Allegedly lost contact in Vietnam airspace. We don't have coverage there yet.
True, but since the flight originated from Kuala Lumpur, we would at least have the departure covered, at least to see if there was anything reported out of the ordinary there..
EDIT: User at FlightAware stated that the aircraft had lost contact while still in Malaysian airspace, and crashed in Malaysian airspace, before it entered Vietnam airspace. user is based in Saigon. So if the WMKK feed covers the entire FIR, we might have something.
BL.
Already went through a couple hours worth of Lumpur Control tapes and didn't find any comms with target flight.
Turns out there are multiple Lumpur Control frequencies but we only cover one of them right now. The flights on the one we cover all seem to be departing the area to the northwest, so that must be the sector we're covering. Flights out toward the north and northeast must be with another sector.
I do hope they find the plane.
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Just an update the navies of Vietnam, Malaysia , Singapore, Philippines, China and the United States Navy are at the location searching for the plane at this moment. hope for some news soon.
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It has been reported there is some evidence it could be a Hijack the Italian foreign ministry and the Austria Government has officially reported that the Italian Luigi Maraldi and the Austrian Christan Kozel had there passports stolen in Thailand and imposters are using their passports to board the flight . The Malaysian Government are investigating
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CNN cannot even spell Boeing correctly.
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liveatc over wmkk only covers norther and western sector of Lumpur atc although sometimes it tuned to other sector/frequency.. MH370 bound to Beijing is covered by eastern sector of Lumpur atc.. so.. there will be no archived / recoding regarding this MH370..
my prey are with all people on-board...
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Looks like the next MH370 flight to Beijing has just took off are we able to get atc for that flight ?
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Looks like the next MH370 flight to Beijing has just took off are we able to get atc for that flight ?
Did they use the same call sign? It would be interesting if they did because they don't know the fate of MAS370 from yesterday.
BL.
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According to FlightAware, MAS370 is currently enroute to Beijing. So if seems they are using the same flight number
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Yes, they are using the same flight number for the next day flight.
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Still no news of finding the plane even with so many navies searching in the area. The Malaysian government have requested the help of the FBI NTSB to help in the investigations as there are more evidence to indicate that it is a terror related incident.
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At least Gulf of Thailand is shallow water - most of it < 200 ft, so accessible by tech Scuba. Finding and recovering the plane should be fairly quick, unlike, for example, the Air France flight.
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There is also a possibility that the airplane turned around...
A piece of composite material has been observed floating on the surface. It is suspected that this is an interior trim section from one of the cabin doors... (see AvHerald article for photo)
"Vietnam's navy has spotted a floating object about 80 kilometers (50 miles) southwest of Vietnam's Tho Chu Island, which is located off the country's southwest coast in the Gulf of Thailand, Vietnam National Search and Rescue Committee Spokesman Hung Nguyen told CNN. The object was spotted by a Vietnamese navy rescue aircraft at about 7:30 a.m. ET Sunday (6:30 p.m. local time). Due to the dark, the navy aircraft could not get close enough to identify the floating object, and was recalled to base. Three search and rescue boats have since been deployed to that location."
From CNN:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/09/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Oil slick found as well:
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/03/09/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-may-have-turned-back-before-vanishing-over-south-china-sea-with-239-people-on-board/
AvHerald:
http://avherald.com/h?article=4710c69b&opt=0
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"Sunday, March 09, 02:43 PM MYT +0800 Malaysia Airlines MH370 Flight Incident - 8th Media Statement
Statement by MAS GCEO, Ahmad Jauhari Yahya
Together with all those affected by the MH370 incident, we understand the need to provide regular updates on the progress of the search and rescue operations. As the hours turn into days, we at Malaysia Airlines are similarly anxious and we appreciate the patience, support and prayers from everyone.
We however acknowledge that the most affected group in this incident is the families of those on-board. As such, our primary focus at this point in time is to care for the families. This means providing them with timely information, travel facilities, accommodation, meals and emotional support. Initial financial assistance has been given out to all families. Caregivers are already assigned to each family and they are trained staff and volunteers from Malaysia and Australia.
Family members of the MH370 passengers from Beijing who wish to travel will be flown in stages to Kuala Lumpur on the available flights. We are also communicating with the families from other nations to similarly arrange for their travel to Kuala Lumpur.
In the event flight MH370 is located, a Response Control Centre (RCC) in the area will be activated to support the needs of families.
The airline continues to work with the authorities and we appreciate the help we are receiving from all parties during this critical and difficult time"
http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/dark-site.html
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Something which struck me as disturbing about this incident involving MH 370 was the premature release of the passenger manifest (yesterday) on Malaysian Airlines website. Having served on an emergency response team for a major airline I find it difficult to believe all next of kin would have been notified so quickly. Also, the Italian passport who's rightful owner was found not to have boarded MH 370 would have been known prior to publishing his name online.
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The pilot of another flight told a Malaysian newspaper he had made brief contact with the plane via his emergency frequency, at the request of Vietnamese aviation authorities who had been unable to reach it as expected. Vietnam has said it believes the flight never entered its airspace
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/09/malaysia-airlines-missing-plane-fears-worst
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Probably not related to the incident, but worth mentioning that the aircraft involved is 9M-MRO (Boeing 777-2H6/ER cn 28420/404), this very same aircraft had it's wingtip damaged in a ground collision in August 2012 at Shanghai with a China Eastern Airways Airbus A340-600 ...
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/missing-jet/missing-malaysia-airlines-jet-had-ground-collision-2012-n47706
It does make the mind recall China Airlines 611...on May 25, 2002, while operating the Taipei–Hong Kong route, Boeing 747-209B B-18255 broke up in-flight 20 minutes into the flight, killing all on board. The aircraft had suffered a tailstrike in 1980, was repaired, and put back into service. The repair work was sub-standard. While it lasted 22 years, it was eventually to blame for the crash.
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Probably not related to the incident, but worth mentioning that the aircraft involved is 9M-MRO (Boeing 777-2H6/ER cn 28420/404), this very same aircraft had it's wingtip damaged in a ground collision in August 2012 at Shanghai with a China Eastern Airways Airbus A340-600 ...
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/missing-jet/missing-malaysia-airlines-jet-had-ground-collision-2012-n47706
https://twitter.com/MarySchiavo/status/442647017668759552/photo/1
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At this time, no organized terror group has claimed responsibility for this incident...
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/missing-jet/no-terror-group-claims-credit-missing-jet-official-says-n48481
See also:
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/missing-jet/5-questions-what-status-missing-jet-investigation-n48336
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I think what is important now is to find the plane now with almost 12 countries with 32 aircraft fixed winged and rotary winged and more than 45 warships searching for the plane and now I hear with Satellite coverage they are still unable to detect even a piece of the Boeing 777 plane . we will then be able to answer all our questions to what happen to the plane .
Update: There is news coming in that there is a fleet of Malaysian Fishing Boats of about 100 Ships mustering preparing to enter the Search area but this is not conformed.
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The item that was seen floating on the surface, believed to be part of the airplane, has infact turned out to be a part of a cable reel. The oil slicks on the surface are still thought to be from the missing 777, but not confirmed. So at this point, searchers are still sitting on square one...
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This is the search area for now they are going to expand it soon . The Small red cycle is the last known position of the plane
Update: Only one oil slick was tested and it was not from the plane and other 'oil slicks' is confirmed as grease so back to square one again.
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The new Search area map to locate the plane it includes the distribution of search assets to different locations of search for air and sea and land yes they have started on the ground also To Quote the Commander “We are every hour, every minute, every second looking at every inch of the sea,”
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This pictures is from the Republic of Singapore Air Force C130 Search Plane on one of the sorties
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These are the Malaysia search Warships and Chopper
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This is Vietnam's side of the Search Plane and choppers on Crew change
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"An oil slick that searchers had thought might be from the plane turned out to be fuel oil typically used in cargo ships, according to Rahman."
From:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/10/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Square one...
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For whatever reason I keep thinking there's a possibility the aircraft may have ended up in a remote jungle of Vietnam. But, if that were the case one could argue there would be a signal emanating from the black box.
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For whatever reason I keep thinking there's a possibility the aircraft may have ended up in a remote jungle of Vietnam. But, if that were the case one could argue there would be a signal emanating from the black box.
At this point, I would be open to any possibility...this aircraft and all of it's contents have simply vanished without a trace.
No Mayday, no explosion, no fireball, no floating debris, no fire on the surface of the water, no oil slick, no signal from the ELT, ...nothing...
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Perhaps they flew into a time warp, and are now looking down at dinosaurs where Idlewild airport should be, but taking in all the latest... two passengers with stolen passports using cheap, one-way tickets purchased by an Iranian third party, I would put a hijack followed by suicide dive into the sea (like the EgyptAir flight) at the top of my probable cause list. A bomb at altitude would have spread floating debris for miles and miles, whereas diving straight into the water (or land) would leave the smallest debris footprint. Remember how long it took to find and recover debris from that ValuJet crash in the Everglades, and that was with ample radar tracking data over land. The lack of any distress call suggests either the sudden incapacitation or participation of those on the flight deck. If the aircraft was hijacked, perhaps with assistance of one or more of the crew, they could have pulled the breaker on the transponder and ADS-B, flown on to jungle of Viet Nam, dumping fuel along the way and then impaling themselves into the canopy with a similar residual crash site effect as lawn-darting themselves into the sea.
All we at the keyboards can do is speculate, but three things are for sure, 1) the aircraft is no longer airborne, 2) it will be found, and 3) we will be able to figure out what really happened.
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"Hong Kong's Air Traffic Control Center reported on Mar 10th 2014 around 17:30L (09:30Z) that an airliner enroute on airway L642 reported via HF radio that they saw a large field of debris at position N9.72 E107.42 about 80nm southeast of Ho Chi Minh City, about 50nm off the south-eastern coast of Vietnam in the South China Sea and about 281nm northeast of the last known radar position. Ships have been dispatched to the reported debris field.
Vietnam's Headquarters for the Search and Rescue operation of MH-370 confirmed receiving the report by Hong Kong's Air Traffic Control Center stating that a Hong Kong based airliner reported a large field of debris while enroute on airway L642. A Thai cargo ship in the area was asked for assistance and has set course to the area but did not find anything unusual so far. A second vessel asked for assistance did find some debris. Following this finding Vietnam's Maritime Search and Rescue Services (MRCC) dispatched a ship to the debris field.
Hong Kong's Civil Aviation Department confirmed a Cathay Pacific flight from Hong Kong to Kuala Lumpur spotted large amount of debris while enroute off the coast of South East Vietnam."
From the updated AvHerald article:
http://avherald.com/h?article=4710c69b&opt=0
The updated article also confirms that the first part seen floating in the ocean has been determined to be NOT part of the Boeing 777...
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I've been wondering about this all night and am curious about a couple of things (well a lot more, but these two main ones)
Does the 777 Satcom / ACARS/ FANS system(s) check in on a regular basis and provide a current GPS co-ordinate back to base?
From my brief reading, it looks like they can be disabled in the cockpit, but not sure.
I'm also curious about the huge search area that's being shown as being setup to the west side. (pic was posted a few posts up). Some of that area is a good 60-120mins+ flying time from the last reported location with a number of Mil and Commercial airports they would have had to come closeish to.
Its a long time since I've lived there, but there were a good few air force bases up the north end of Malaysia so presume there'd be a few mil radar's sweeping up there and at least three commerical airports (Penang, Langkawi and Phuket) come to mind in the area. Penang is in Sector D on the map, Langkawi in B and Phuket north of A. (Phuket being in Thailand not Malaysia of course). How likely is it that a 777 could fly ~90mins with no primary radar pickup through Thai airspace and likely within Malaysian radar range?
(For reference, the flight departed from KUL which is just inland of the SE corner of search area D
(First post after a while lurking in the shadows)
Nick
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Does the 777 Satcom / ACARS/ FANS system(s) check in on a regular basis and provide a current GPS co-ordinate back to base?
From my brief reading, it looks like they can be disabled in the cockpit, but not sure.
Welcome to the Threads Nick!
I do not believe it does. ACARS (Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System) can report OOOI (Out/Off/On/In) Events and technical issues with the aircraft to the ground. Unless the aircraft is having an issue, no automated communications would be transmitted from the aircraft until it lands at the destination if all systems are green. Once the OFF Event is recorded, an ETA at Destination would be transmitted. A position report could be sent by THE CREW, but not THE AIRPLANE. It also allows for Weather/Re-route information to be sent from the ground to the aircraft. Two way communication capability also exists in a form similar to the text messages we all get on our cell phone in which the number of topics open for discussion is endless. On 09/11, United Airlines sent ACARS messages to it's entire fleet warning of possible cockpit intrusion.
Practically any system on the airplane can be "disabled" if the power is removed, either by the crew, or a mechanical failure resulting in loss of power. Air France 447 sent a flurry of ACARS messages during its final moments in the air because the power supply system was operating normally during the unplanned descent...
The FANS (Future Air Navigation System) on the other hand, does.
"AIRLINE OPERATIONAL CONTROL DATA LINK.
The AOC link gives airline data systems the ability to transmit new routes, position reports, and updated winds through the data link network."
From:
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_02/textonly/fo02txt.html
The FANS is optional equipment however, and may have not been part of this aircraft's package. She was an "early" production -200 series, first flew on 14 May 2002, and delivered new to Malaysia Airlines on 31 May 2002. She would have turned 12 years old in a couple months time.
See also the file attached below for more info:
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Thanks,
That's the PDF I'd been reading beforehand, but couldn't work out if FANS was optional on 777's or std equipment from day 1. Looking at the Boeing link below "The 777 includes FANS 1 as a basic feature", but may still beg the question whether MAS utilised it.
N
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It is now more than 80 hours since the disappearance of the flight with so many naval assets from all over the world searching. I really hope to find at least one survivor, the plane or the black boxes to explain where and how the plane could just go missing. FYI the Malaysian Government is still calling it a S&R mission I really hope they still can Rescue someone.
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This photos are from the Royal Malaysian Air Force Search Chopper and The Elite Para Divers of the Royal Malaysian Armed Forces prepping and boarding for sortie.
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Looks like the Plane change course and fly for an hour after vanishing from the radar over the Malacca Strait 500km which is now the last location according to the RMAF Radar.
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Looks like the Plane change course and fly for an hour after vanishing from the radar over the Malacca Strait 500km which is now the last location according to the RMAF Radar.
CNN confirms...
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/11/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane/index.html
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Latest updates from AvHerald article...
"On Mar 11th 2014 the airline reported that the aircraft had accumulated 53,465 flight hours in 7,525 flight cycles since its delivery to Malaysia Airlines in 2002. The aircraft has last undergone maintenance on Feb 23rd 2014. All Malaysia Airlines aircraft are equipped with ACARS transmitting monitoring data automatically. However, no distress call and no information was relayed. The search area has been extended and includes the Strait of Malacca west of Malaysia looking at the possibility that the aircraft may have turned back and diverted to Subang (Malaysia)."
...and...
"Vietnam's Search and Rescue Center later announced that the border guard vessel arriving at the position of the debris field did not find any objects. There were high winds and large waves, the debris possibly drifted away.
On Mar 11th 2014 Malaysia's Air Force reported their primary radar data suggest, the aircraft may have turned west over the Gulf of Thailand at about 1000 meters/3000 feet below the original flight level (editorial note: another possible interpretation could be: at 1000 meters of height compared to 10000 meters original level) and flown past the east coast near Khota Baru and the west coast of Malaysia near Kedah, the radar return was last seen at 02:40L near Pulau Perak in the Straits of Malacca, about 285nm westsouthwest of the last known (secondary) radar position. Local Police at Khota Bharu confirmed a number of locals reported lights and a low flying aircraft at Khota Bharu at an estimated height of 1000 meters/3000 feet.
In the evening of Mar 11th 2014 Vietnam's Search and Rescue Center reported they were expanding their search areas both to the east and west including the South China Sea and Gulf of Thailand. Two Chinese search planes in addition to the Vietnamese ships and aircraft have been operating over Vietnamese waters, so far there has not been any finding. The oil slicks and debris found in the Gulf of Thailand south of Tho Chau Island proved unrelated to MH-370, the field of debris of Mar 10th was determined false alert too."
http://avherald.com/h?article=4710c69b&opt=0
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It is now over 100 hours since the plane was missing and now according to the RMAF radar The plane flew around 500 kilometers at least after its last contact with air traffic control may be an attempt to return back To the airport but why was there no radio contact and In this day and age, how on earth, with all our technology, do we lose a plane on radar. when now according To the RMAF it flew another 500 kilometers
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That report has not yet been officially confirmed by the military and there seems to be some dispute about it.
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That does kind of answer the second part of my original post if it is confirmed. Image of the expanded western search grids did appear nearly 48 hours ago now and someone must have had some kind of data that wasn't public that made them start looking over there. Hence my FARS question and primary radar question.
Sounds like it ended up being primary radar.
If the sighting over Pulau Perak is correct, the plane may have just about overflown the island of Langkawi and its airport WWKL (unsure if it operates overnight) and would have just about been a straight in approach for the airfield (single runway 21/3). Airfield is plenty long enough to take a 777. (12,500ft)
https://www.google.com/maps/@6.3375714,99.7351753,14z (WWKL)
https://www.google.com/maps/@5.6894327,98.9524904,14z (Pulau Perak)
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That report has not yet been officially confirmed by the military and there seems to be some dispute about it.
100% true. This report has not been confirmed by anyone in direct connection to this aircraft, Malaysia Airlines, the Malaysian Military, or the Malaysian Government. Simply because it was broadcast on CNN or FOX News doesn't mean it is gospal. It just adds to the speculation pot, which at this point, is all anybody has got... No hard evidence of any kind. No probable, realistic scenario has been 100% ruled out, or 100% ruled in...
There are reports of witnesses on the ground seeing a low flying aircraft with bright lights in the early hours of the morning. These reports were made to local police departments and claimed the aircraft was flying at an altitude of about 3000 ft...Lets not forget to that witnesses on the ground rarely get the story right. They saw what THEY KNOW they saw... What they KNOW they saw and what actually happened are not always the same thing...
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Bit of a lurker in the forums thus far and I really hate to leave my first post in such a tragic board, but I cannot resist
http://shanghaiist.com/2014/03/12/mh370_photos_cockpit-selfie_a_burge.php
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Latest update: CNN reports that Chinese satellite images show floating objects that may be part of MAS370. http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/12/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
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Hopefully they have finally found the plane it has been far too long for the plane to be found more than 128 hours since it was missing.
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Looks like call sign MH370 is officially retired this is from Malaysia Airlines
Thursday, March 13, 11:10 AM MYT +0800 Malaysia Airlines MH370 Flight Incident - 17th Media Statement
As a mark of respect to the passengers and crew of MH370 on 8 March 2014, the MH370 and MH371 flight codes will be retired from the Malaysia Airlines’ Kuala Lumpur- Beijing-Kuala Lumpur route.
With effect from 14 March 2014, the new flight number to replace MH370 and MH371 will be:-
MH 318 – Kuala Lumpur - Beijing
MH 319 – Beijing - Kuala Lumpur
There are no changes to the frequency of our services and we will continue to operate double daily services to Beijing.
Our thoughts and prayers remain with the families of our colleagues and passengers of MH 370.
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Crazy. Payne Stewart or James Bond?
Missing Airplane Flew On for Hours
http://tinyurl.com/kxtu3dt
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Not sure if its more keystone cops or Yes Minister, but seems like the westerly radar contact that was MH370 then was denied 'but we're still looking that way anyway' is again on the cards.
In other developments, it seems to have surfaced via a 'US source' to the WSJ, that Rolls Royce/have 4 hours of engine performance data for the 777 after the transponder stopped.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/2014/03/13/18/44/us-suspects-missing-plane-flew-on-for-hours-wsj-report
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304914904579434653903086282?mod=WSJAsia_hpp_LEFTTopStories&mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702304914904579434653903086282.html%3Fmod%3DWSJAsia_hpp_LEFTTopStories
"As part of its maintenance agreements, Malaysia Airlines transmits its engine data live to Rolls-Royce for analysis. The system compiles data from inside the 777's two Trent 800 engines and transmits snapshots of performance, as well as the altitude and speed of the jet." (From the WSJ article)
That might explain why the Vietnamese gov't got a little upset and scaled down their S&R several hours earlier due to 'lack or information' from Malaysia as they were searching mainly around the loss of transponder area.
Whatever happens, their communications strategy both public and private doesn't seem to be working too well for them.
Also as a 3rd item, a New Zealander working on an oil rig claims to have spotted something in the sky about 500km NE of the last known location.
http://www.news.com.au/world/oil-rig-worker-says-he-saw-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-burst-into-flames/story-fndir2ev-1226853302184
Unfortunately it seems to be getting stranger as time goes on and not clearer.
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I was skeptical about the floating debris the Chinese satalites captured...rather large...one piece was approximately 70ft x 70ft...very large too large to be from this airplane...
I was hopeful that it did turn out to be from this airplane, and the families could have closure sooner then later...
New idea from the investigators is that the airplane flew for four hours after the transponder was turned off based on automated messages sent to Rolls Royce from the power plants... If that is the case, the investigation is re-examining the previous therory that the aircraft made that turn and headed south-west. This aircraft could be lost in the vast Indian Ocean.
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Curiouser and curiouser. Looks like the pilot deliberately ghosted the aircraft and spiked it into the Indian Ocean so it would never be found.
But they will be able to do a time base analysis of the engine data burst uplinks and figure out which direction they were headed.
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It is now more than 180 hours since the MH370 Boeing 777 disappeared . The search for the Plane has been split between east and west coasts of Peninsular Malaysia and is about to ( So I hear) expand to the Indian Ocean from what I have gather the assets that are searching are ( Which is increasing by the Day) This could be the Biggest SAR Mission ever seen .
Malaysia
11 x RMAF Planes
1 x Navy Chopper
5 x Malaysian Maritime Enforcement Agency Planes
1 x Royal Malaysian Police Plane
15 x Navy Warships
13 x Malaysian Maritime Enforcement Agency Patrol Ships
1 x Rescue ship
Australia
2 x Royal Australian Air Force AP-3C Orion
New Zealand
1 x Royal New Zealand Air Force P-3K Orion
US Navy 7th Fleet
1x P-3C Orion
4x Seahawk
2 x Warships - USS Pickney, USS Kidd
1 x Support Ship -
People's Republic of China
8 x PLA Navy Warships
1 x Coast Guard Partol Vessel
3 x Coast Guard SAR vessels
2 x Navel Choppers
2 x Maritime Search Aircraft
At least 8 satellites
Singapore
2 x Republic of Singapore Air Force C-130 Hercules
1 x S-70B Seahawk
2 x Republic of Singapore Navy Warships
1 x Rescue Ship with Naval Divers
Kingdom of Thailand
1 x Maritime Search Aircraft - Unknown type
1 x Patrol ship
1 x Thai Chopper
Indonesia
1 x MPA Search Aircraft
5 x Navy Warship
2 x SAR ships
Philippines - unable to get number of ships and planes
India- unable to get number of ships and planes but at least 2 satellites
Japan - unable to get number of ships and planes
Vietnam- unable to get number of ships and planes
Taiwan -unable to get number of ships and planes
Brunei -unable to get number of ships and planes
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More info on the engine monitoring. The data IS relayed via satellite feed, doubtful the pilot knew or could have disabled.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngoglia/2014/03/13/aircraft-engine-monitoring-how-it-works-and-how-it-could-help-malaysia-air-370-crash-investigtors/
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I also wonder about the veracity of that engine monitoring data. Specifically, where is it timestamped? On the ground or in the air? I can't tell you how many "industrial" systems I've been called to work on that have unreliable time synchronization (or manual) time setting.
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Very true and We don't even know what happen to the Pilots. I mean was the plane taken over ? Was it pilot error ? Or was it a total systems failure ? only the black boxes can tell us .......
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It's amazing what they can divine from fuzzy data when they really drill into it, and there's always the chance that NSA or other military satellites may have scooped up additional independent data. Adding to the kluster phuck is this report that there was NO engine data...
http://news.yahoo.com/malaysia-no-engine-data-plane-went-missing-111802306.html
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I think it's time for Malaysia to hand over the lead of the search to a country with more search experience. It's clear Malaysia has no clue what they are doing. One day they release one bit of information, then the next day they contradict what they just said. All of this contradiction is not making the search any easier.
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Pentagon says 370 went down in the Indian Ocean.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-pentagon-3238713
That makes the search rather more difficult.
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I've purposely avoided the speculation train as much as possible, but I don't think we're ever going to know a concrete answer in this case.
- Based off the things we know, transponders don't turn themselves off. If the radar return over Pulau Perak does indeed turn out to be the missing 777, it didn't end up flying that route on accident.
- A complete electrical failure just doesn't happen either. Not saying that it isn't possible, but there are so many redundant backups on a 777 - all the way down to a ram air turbine - it just makes it highly unlikely. Even if it was a catastrophic electrical failure, the engines would still spin, and the ram air turbine would provide hydraulic pressure to the control surfaces. The pilot then could have kept flying using the magnetic compass until he was over land and able to locate a suitable airport to land at. He had plenty of fuel to find somewhere.
- Uncontrolled decompression ala Payne Stewart is another theory, but this aircraft was over-water and flying on a programmed FMS. It would have kept flying the route until the FMS was out of instructions.
- Hijack is yet another theory, but it would have to be almost surgical to have absolutely no indication from either the front or back of the aircraft. There are sat phones at crew stations. The hijackers would have to have a very advanced knowledge of the systems on a 777, and flying in general, to be able to disable any and all reporting systems and weave it around ground radar range.
- In-flight breakup seems unlikely because debris would have likely been spotted by now in the Gulf of Thailand. Plenty of stuff on aircraft float. The water currents and unremarkable weather recently would have aided in the recovery.
- Insert any number of broad government conspiracy theories...
Personally, I think someone intentionally took this aircraft hours over the Indian Ocean until the fuel ran out. Pilot suicide is something awful to think about, but I just don't see any other way an airliner like a 777 just goes completely off the reservation like that without someone that knows what they're doing. Radar coverage in that part of the world is shoddy at best, so it wouldn't be hard to go poof in the night at the hands of someone that's familiar with where the coverage gaps are. Pull the right circuit breakers, decompress the cabin so everyone is unconscious, and head for nowhere. Even that sounds awfully wild, and nearly impossible with automated backups in place, though.
One thing I am sure of: the Malaysian government seems completely inept at manning an aviation investigation. The number of releases and retractions they're making aren't making the search any easier. They seem to have no clue about what they're doing. NTSB should be running this investigation, but that would require the full and unmitigated cooperation of the Malaysian, Thai, and possibly Vietnamese governments. I'm not saying it's impossible, but that would indicate the white flag being raised in front of the world.
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I'm for the pilot suicide as well, especially since it has happened before. Flying at night, he could have changed course without the sleeping passengers noticing, flown out over the southern Indian Ocean and augered in before anybody knew what was happening or could do anything about it. Might as well be looking for Amelia Earhart while we're at it.
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Maybe someone can explain me
If I look at this flight at flightradar24.com, I can see the plane flying its correct route much further on, and disappears only at 19:08 UTC. By then, it has by far passed over Vietnam and is about 100km southeast of Sanya.
Why is the news reporting the crash site somewhere northeast of Kota Bharu?
Is anybody looking for the plane where Flightradar indicates the last response?
Is flightradar wrong? Am I misunderstanding the way flightradar works? I thought it uses transponders in the plane?
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Where it is lacking ADS-B data from ground or satellite Flightradar estimates the location based upon planned flight path, which often happens over the oceans. Once the flight regains data link the position is updated, and if it never does the estimated plot may just stop after a certain time period.
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Thanks! I also read their faq but it's not entirely clear to me. Do they keep using the latest received transponder signal for more than an hour before deciding the contact is lost ? And thus base the displayed path purely on the planned trajectory as indicated by the transponder?
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I think they default to the flight planned route and where the aircraft should be at the time when data is not available. The ADS only gives position, speed, and altitude.
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The ADS only gives position, speed, and altitude.
Plus heading, aircraft's unique ICAO hex code, flight number if entered by the crew and squawk code.
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Latest updates from AvHerald...
"On Mar 13th 2014 two Vietnamese aircraft reached the position identified by SASTIND but did not find any debris scanning the area for about 3 hours. China's head of government ordered Chinese ships to the position to "try harder" to find the debris identified by the satellite images. The head of China's Civil Aviation Authority (CAAC) stated, that the SASTIND satellite images show smoke and floating objects, however, "at this time the CAAC can not confirm these objects are related to MH-370" (editorial note: media reports converted this statement into "the debris is not from MH-370").
On Mar 13th 2014 afternoon Malaysia's Transport Minister said in a televised press conference, that the last ACARS transmission was received from the aircraft at 01:07L (17:07Z), there were no later transmissions via ACARS (editorial note: which effectively states a report by a single US "news" paper of the engines monitoring recording information via ACARS for 4 more hours is untrue), the last transmission received from the aircraft indicated all systems were operating normally. Boeing, Roll Royce, and NTSB confirmed the last data transmission received from the aircraft was at 01:07L. Malaysia's Search Control Center consulted with the NTSB and other agencies with respect to the unidentified primary radar returns and it was a common decision, that there were sufficient grounds to dedicate forces to search for the aircraft west of Malaysia. The aircraft dispatched to the location identified by SASTIND did not find anything, China did not intend to release the satellite images to the public. Malaysia is committed to find the aircraft and is going to intensify search efforts further."
http://avherald.com/h?article=4710c69b&opt=0
More and more curious...
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I'm for the pilot suicide as well, especially since it has happened before. Flying at night, he could have changed course without the sleeping passengers noticing, flown out over the southern Indian Ocean and augered in before anybody knew what was happening or could do anything about it. Might as well be looking for Amelia Earhart while we're at it.
Course changes at night are often not felt by anyone, especially with bank limitations and yaw dampers built into autopilots. If pilot suicide is the cause, unless the two pilots had a suicide pact, the pilot flying would have to disable the other pilot somehow. The only way I could think that would work would either be a violent act (which would undoubtedly be noticed/heard by other crew or pax) or dump the cabin pressure while the other pilot is visiting the lav and pilot flying was wearing o2. Most of our domestic carriers require a minimum of 2 crew on the flight deck at all times, whether that be 2 pilots, a pilot and the purser, etc. That's not the case in most other countries.
Anyway...here I go getting on the speculation train...I have a long day flying a King Air tomorrow. Time to watch junk TV and not forums. :-D
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Okay one more post: it's now being widely reported that there were pings sent to Inmersat satellites hours after it vanishing, although no specific data was transmitted. This might even further implicate a takeover of sorts. I still think it would take someone very highly trained to pull the right breakers to disable everything needed to make the airplane vanish. I'm not saying hijackers can't be highly trained, but it would have to be extremely coordinated, extremely quick, and extremely effective to takeover all crew stations simultaneously.
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The latest is that there was a 14 minute gap between when the ADS was shut down and the transponder, which nukes the total electrical failure theory. Also, it is logical that the sat system would continue pinging regardless whether they were logged onto CPDLC and actually sending data, and even if they de-powered the ADS it is likely the other performance related reporting systems may have been pinging on their own. Don't know whether they are independent but I suspect they are.
As to the decompression theory, I cannot imagine the emergency oxygen system can be disarmed from the cockpit and the flight attendants have their bottles, so one of them should have been able to get to the sat phone. Besides, I don't see the need in darkness over water with a flight expected to last hours... they just keep cruising along, making cabin announcements about the headwinds, etc., until it's time to roll inverted and aim for the water. Alternatively he (or they) might just swallow a bottle of sleeping pills when there is only a half hour of fuel remaining. The objective was to make the plane disappear without a trace, CVR never recovered, and the southern Indian Ocean is the place to do it.
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I'm interested to learn more on programming the FMC. Can the pilot / co mis-program the FMC (intentionally or not) then start the flight with a "bad" program or are there safeties to prevent this? Thinking lack of situational awareness, given recent similar situations, until they wake up south of Japan.
Also, if the plane were spiked as speculated, anyone know if SOSUS would pick that up? A bit far from Guam or Midway but sound travels far in water. Thanks.
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That may be one of the bigger problems in collecting data... no military or intelligence agency wants to reveal their capabilities (or lack thereof) to others. I recall years ago when the Soviets shot down that Korean airliner and there was internal debate as to whether we should reveal that we were able to monitor and had recordings of all the communications between the fighter pilots and their controller, including the smoking gun tape, "The target is destroyed".
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I'm interested to learn more on programming the FMC. Can the pilot / co mis-program the FMC (intentionally or not) then start the flight with a "bad" program or are there safeties to prevent this? Thinking lack of situational awareness, given recent similar situations, until they wake up south of Japan.
Well even if the FMS was programmed horribly wrong, any pilot with a little training could recognize something awry, let alone 2 experienced 777 pilots. That kind of deviation would be very apparent on the PFD. The planned route of flight was didn't encompass many large turns, so a prolonged 90* turn would definitely be noticed almost immediately. Not only that, but even if they did go way off course before noticing they were, why didn't they send out a distress signal? Why didn't they check in with Ho Chi Minh control after they were handed off? Too many holes.
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Now I'm hearing 2 new pieces of information on CNN. First, I heard them mention something about waypoints in the Indian Ocean. What links MAS370 to those waypoints? Second, they mentioned something about lithium batteries in the cargo hold possibly bringing the plane down. Why are they suspicious of lithium batteries?
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Now I'm hearing 2 new pieces of information on CNN. First, I heard them mention something about waypoints in the Indian Ocean. What links MAS370 to those waypoints? Second, they mentioned something about lithium batteries in the cargo hold possibly bringing the plane down. Why are they suspicious of lithium batteries?
I suspect CNN's battery theory has a lot to do with the 787, and probably has very little relevancy to this accident. In short, lithium batteries have been a major problem on 787's, specifically catching fire. 777 uses nickel cadmium batteries though.
I would take anything you read on CNN with a grain of salt. Their panel of "experts" include people like Bill Nye the science guy, and a bunch of people with no aviation background. They are simply mouthpieces to the masses, but often time don't have a clue what they're talking about.
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Here's a good link about communications:
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/03/todays-malaysia-airlines-370-news-what-it-means-that-the-plane-apparently-kept-flying/284414/
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This is bad looks like all of the communications systems of missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 were deliberately disabled and shut down and then it changed course, flying back over Malaysia towards India and Satellite signals continued to be picked up from the plane some seven hours after it lost radar contact with the last on at 8:11 am the next morning
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26591056#?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
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Yes, apparently it continued flying more than 7 hours. Sounds like a james bond movie :)
I think that rules out a pilot suicide? Why would you keep flying 7 hours then? To die in your favourite country?
Trying to steal the plane? But all items are numbered so chances to re-use or sell parts might be futile?
Could this just be a "test run" to see what intelligence capabilities really are? Preparing for something else?
Or was there a special Chinese passenger on board? China has way above normal interest in this accident?
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I don't understand how it could have flown for 7 hours, if it only had enough fuel to fly for 4-5 hours. That means that either the pilots really know how to conserve fuel, or one of the reports (fuel capacity or the report that it flew for 7 hours) is not true. Correct?
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Well, if the original flight was to be 4-5 hours and they had at least an hour of reserve for an alternate, that would get you to five or six, and it's hard to imagine that they only carry an hour reserve when flying in that neck of the jungle with suitable airfields so few and far between, so seven hours planned duration under normal circumstances would be expected, IMO. Further, if no "landing phase" was intended (going to spike it into the ocean) much fuel can be saved as well, greatly extending the maximum endurance cruise speed time and range. Keep in mind that even the short range 777's have an endurance of around nine hours.
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I'm not sure I believe the spike it in the ocean theory any more. If you're going to crash the plane, why would you fly the plane for 7 hours? Why not just crash right when you get control of he plane?
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Malaysian sources today said the plane climbed to 45,000 ft before descending to 23,000. Service limit for a 777 is about 43,000. Is the plane actually flyable at 45,000? How close is it to stall and mach buffet?
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John... my belief is it is a pilot suicide and he wants the wreckage to never be spotted by maritime traffic and the CVR never recovered, so you go as far as possible into the southern Indian Ocean, perhaps among the least frequently navigated places on the globe except for sailors trying to set round the world records.
As to the aircraft reaching FL450, I suspect not a problem for the aircraft but yes... something requiring a skilled pilot if not on autopilot, though safety systems may help avoid a stall. Ask a 777 driver.
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With the new info that the Transponder was turned off before the handoff to the next Viet controller, why did ATC not react to losing the transponder signal before he gave the handoff to next controller?
Was MH370 already out of radar range at the time? can we confirm that or not
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That is indeed what is being reported. If the transponder was turned off before the handoff...the controller should have immediately noticed that and challenged the aircraft. Makes no sense. But, then again, not much of this whole event has made sense.
Also still a mystery...if Malaysia authorities were aware of MH370 going off the grid...then why didn't they scramble aircraft to investigate the "unidentified blip" crossing their airspace, some time later? Again, makes no sense.
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"why didn't they scramble aircraft to investigate the "unidentified blip" crossing their airspace"
Because the radar operators were inattentive, nodding off or stoned, or their superiors were inferior, so whatever story they fabricated after the fact about not being concerned about it and/or acting upon it at the time it is just CYA. It is obvious that their military was, has been, is, and always will be clueless.
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I don't understand how it could have flown for 7 hours, if it only had enough fuel to fly for 4-5 hours. That means that either the pilots really know how to conserve fuel, or one of the reports (fuel capacity or the report that it flew for 7 hours) is not true. Correct?
The flight was 5.5 hours in length, plus ground time, plus a fuel reserve of usually an hour or more. It could have easily had 7 hours worth of fuel.
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I didn't realize that the flight was originally planned as 5.5 hours. I was going by the reports that it had 4-5 hours of fuel. Now that you mention that the flight was supposed to be 5.5 hours, 7 hours of fuel makes more sense. 5 hours of fuel vs a 5 hour flight is a big difference.
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
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If the southern track was taken, it may have wandered into the outer range of the Australian "Jindarlee" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jindalee_Operational_Radar_Network (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jindalee_Operational_Radar_Network) over the horizon RADAR network. It has an 'official' range of 3000km from the coast, but 'may' be more.
Hopefully someones asked Australia to check the tapes and hopefully the operational performance of Jindarlee isn't too sensitive to release any/some data they may have.
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I don't understand how it could have flown for 7 hours, if it only had enough fuel to fly for 4-5 hours. That means that either the pilots really know how to conserve fuel, or one of the reports (fuel capacity or the report that it flew for 7 hours) is not true. Correct?
The flight was 5.5 hours in length, plus ground time, plus a fuel reserve of usually an hour or more. It could have easily had 7 hours worth of fuel.
That would be 7 hours of fuel for a trip at altitude. But, if this flight descended and was flying at a few thousand feet (maybe to evade radar?) as some reports have indicated, it would have MUCH less than 7 hours of fuel.
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Well, if he was going to fly that low, he might as well have been flying at 50' in ground effect... who knows how long he could have gone that way?
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Like half the world, I've found this story captivating and am waiting for the movie. This theory started floating around my Facebook feed. I'm not knowledgeable enough to determine if it's feasible or not. What does everyone here think?
http://keithledgerwood.tumblr.com/post/79838944823/did-malaysian-airlines-370-disappear-using-sia68-sq68
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Now people are claiming that they saw a low flying aircraft that matches the description of MAS370 flying over the Maldives. http://www.haveeru.com.mv/news/54062
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Yes, the plot thickens :-)
Not much space there to land it in 1 piece. Bit hard to build a temporary landing strip a few miles long ? Maybe try to land on the water? Could it be that there was very valuable cargo (Chinese gold?) and that they had a salvage team prepared on the planned crash site? And then sink the remains to the sea floor? Too much fun, I hope they find more exciting clues :-P
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One thing that might point to the hijacked cargo theory is whether Emilio Largo (No.2) was sailing the Disco Volante anywhere in the Indian Ocean at the time. Perhaps they should review that video of the two pilots going through security and note the angle at which the captain wore his cap...
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The Search Area is now a staggering 2.94 MILLION Square Miles... :|
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Another interesting theory...
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh370-electrical-fire/
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Australia is reporting that they have spotted debris that may belong to MAS370.
http://news.sky.com/story/1228904/missing-plane-objects-may-be-mh370-debris
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I was just wondering If the 777 was flying at 25K ft and runs out of fuel, what will the AP do or will it modify to glide the plane down or it will just nose dive down ? any ideas ?
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Boeing should be able to answer that one... it's a fly by wire aircraft, meaning you need power, both electrical and hydraulic to operate flight control surfaces. When the batteries and/or hydraulic accumulators deplete control is lost, however it seems to me that if I were designing the software I would have it monitor the power sources and assure that the aircraft was in best glide configuration prior to total loss of power. The 777 is supposedly a very stable aircraft, meaning if it were properly trimmed it may go on for some time with no control input, perhaps wallowing and porpoising a bit, but not doing what the movies and cartoons think planes do when they lose power... like zombies brought back to life that immediately need to strangle somebody, airplanes always stop in midair, pivot nose down and dive straight for the ground, usually to the sound of a Stuka dive bomber siren.
It's a good question. It's also why I hate being in any fly by wire aircraft not equipped with ejection seats.
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Boeing should be able to answer that one... it's a fly by wire aircraft, meaning you need power, both electrical and hydraulic to operate flight control surfaces. When the batteries and/or hydraulic accumulators deplete control is lost, however it seems to me that if I were designing the software I would have it monitor the power sources and assure that the aircraft was in best glide configuration prior to total loss of power. The 777 is supposedly a very stable aircraft, meaning if it were properly trimmed it may go on for some time with no control input, perhaps wallowing and porpoising a bit, but not doing what the movies and cartoons think planes do when they lose power... like zombies brought back to life that immediately need to strangle somebody, airplanes always stop in midair, pivot nose down and dive straight for the ground, usually to the sound of a Stuka dive bomber siren.
It's a good question. It's also why I hate being in any fly by wire aircraft not equipped with ejection seats.
The 777 automatically deploys a RAT (ram air turbine) in case of total power failure to generate enough power to allow for at least partial control (electric, and hydraulic). The AP would most probably disconnect (I would assume, but I'm no 777 driver) when the engines flame out at the latest, but it would certainly still be flyable, and lacking any control inputs I would assume, like you, that it would maintain trimmed airspeed and not stall.
Some aircraft use a RAT, others, like the 747 rely on windmilling engines to power the generators even after they run out of fuel.
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A few days ago the subject of TCAS came up (a link to an article was posted that suggested that MAH370 turned off their transponder so that they could not be picked up on another aircraft's TCAS).
My question is: how does a TCAS system know where another aircraft is located? Is it receiving GPS info from the other nearby aircraft or is done another way? I always thought it was GPS based but now I'm not so sure...
Ron
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OK, thanks, that makes sense. I hadn't considered signal triangulation before.
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So I posted this to the wrong forum (my bad), but what do you guys think of this...
http://www.liveatc.net/forums/listener-forum/protocol-for-contacting-next-controller-when-passed-along/
As far as I know (and RonR sort of confirmed on the other thread) whenever an airplane is passed along from one controller to the next their protocol is that they contact that new controller right away. Based on what I've read and seen in the news the last transmission from the plane was to an area controller leaving Malaysia and entering Vietnam. At the time of that transmission everything seemed normal. The pilot then should have contacted the controller in Vietnam without delay. The fact that this not happened is striking.
If this were an accident... either a fire on board or some catastrophic mechanical failure, wouldn't it have had to happen exactly that moment right after they said good night to the Malaysian controllers? I mean, that's a window of what... 10 or 20 seconds? It could have been a coincidence, but that's a pretty big coincidence. Out of all in flight emergencies that could occur there aren't many that would prohibit the pilot from making some sort of communication. What are the chances that just such a catastrophe could occur exactly seconds after the pilots switched from Malaysian to Vietnamese controllers? One popular theory is a fire caused by or fueled by potentially improperly stored batteries. Fires can spread quickly, but can they spread THAT quickly that the situation would go from "Thank you good night" to HOLY CRAP in half a minute? And wouldn't there be a smell of smoke first that would trigger some sort of communication in the first place? The timing of that strikes me as very strange. What do you guys think?
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Is the acknowledgment of only reading back the flight number normal procedure in Malaysian airspace?
See a portion of the transcript below where KLATC simply replies with "MH370" after receiving a flight level report.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/malaysia/10714907/Revealed-the-final-54-minutes-of-communication-from-MH370.html
KL RADAR
00:46:51 MH370: KL ATC, This is MH370
ATC: MH370, please climb to flight altitude 250
00:46:54 MH370: MH370 is climbing to flight altitude 250
00:50:06 ATC: MH370, climbing to flight altitude 350
00:50:09 MH370: This is MH370, flight altitude 350
01:01:14 MH370: MH370 remaining in flight altitude 350
01:01:19 ATC: MH370
01:07:55 MH370: MH370 remaining in flight altitude 350
01:08:00 ATC: MH370
01:19:24 ATC: MH370, please contact Hu Chi Minh City 120.9, goodnight
01:19:29 MH370: All right, good night
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It maybe an ICAO rule but in some countries (aparently Malaysia)there is a rule that ATC has to acknowledge pilot read backs of altitude clearances. This is not a rule in America.
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Some more info on debris that was found in the Indian ocean...
http://www.frequentbusinesstraveler.com/2014/03/china-satellite-spots-large-object-in-indian-ocean-in-search-for-malaysia-airlines-debris/
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CNN says that satellite experts have concluded that MAS370 crashed into the Indian Ocean. The Prime Minister of Malaysia has said that no one survived.
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As I said in the beginning, in a few years we will learn that it was a pilot suicide, deliberately flying to the end of the world in an attempt to have the CVR and FDR irrecoverable. Judging by the size of the debris, if in fact it is from the aircraft, most likely is that he darkened the aircraft, killed off the passengers in the initial climb to FL450, intercepted and followed SA68 northwest out of the Strait of Malacca and out into the Indian Ocean, then set the autopilot for the South Pole and after a few hours swallowed a bottle of sleeping pills.
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Update on the search...
http://www.frequentbusinesstraveler.com/2014/03/australia-suspends-mh370-search-citing-horrendous-conditions/
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I was hoping for something a little more current than Tuesday...
They've moved the search area significantly in the past 24 hrs based on estimated fuel exhaustion calculations, bringing it closer to Perth and providing aircraft about twice the search time before refueling. Perhaps the next search period will find at least a scrap of tangible evidence.
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Yeah, sorry, I only just came across that article today...here is the latest news that I could find. It supports what you said about the search area being moved and based the move on new radar data analysis...
http://www.frequentbusinesstraveler.com/2014/03/malaysia-flight-370-latest-radar-data-sends-searchers-700-miles-north/
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Just heard unconformed reports that 5/10 planes spotted various objects in the new search area. In some cases, big debris. Won't know till tomorrow. But looks promising of finding something ships are on the way now ....
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Yeah, sorry, I only just came across that article today...here is the latest news that I could find. It supports what you said about the search area being moved and based the move on new radar data analysis...
http://www.frequentbusinesstraveler.com/2014/03/malaysia-flight-370-latest-radar-data-sends-searchers-700-miles-north/
I wish they would provide a map or something comparing where they were originally looking in the S. Indian Ocean versus where they are looking now. My guess is that depending on winds and currents, all of that could push east, bringing it closer to Perth. The way things are going, some of it (albeit in the next 5 - 1000 years) could find itself washing ashore somewhere Fremantle and Darwin. who knows?
BL.
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I wish they would provide a map or something comparing where they were originally looking in the S. Indian Ocean versus where they are looking now.
These maps are all over the web.
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Search now in its fourth week...
http://www.frequentbusinesstraveler.com/2014/03/flight-370-week-four-search-effort-moves-to-new-stretch-of-indian-ocean/
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I wish they would provide a map or something comparing where they were originally looking in the S. Indian Ocean versus where they are looking now.
These maps are all over the web.
That's my point. As a journalist, you are supposed to be accurate with the information you are writing/reporting. Without any of that, and others putting up their own information which goes off of other speculations, your report isn't accurate or could be suspect. Hence all of the conspiracy theories going around.
BL.
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Malaysia is now saying that the final words from MAS370 were NOT "All right, good night" but were in fact "Good night, Malaysia 370." What took them so long to figure this out, and where did "All right, good night" come from? What else is Malaysia lying about? Where are the ATC transcripts, and where are the ATC recordings? What is Malaysia hiding?
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where did "All right, good night" come from?
Yeah... this brings doubt to the credibility of anything else reported. How do you mess this up? It's a question of fact. They either said one thing, or not. It's a clear tape. How do you hear something that wasn't said? Did they make it up??
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where did "All right, good night" come from?
Yeah... this brings doubt to the credibility of anything else reported. How do you mess this up? It's a question of fact. They either said one thing, or not. It's a clear tape. How do you hear something that wasn't said? Did they make it up??
I wonder if it is a language translation issue? This handoff, and/or the pilot's response, may not have been in English, so maybe we're getting some loose translation of some slang phrase. (For example, I wonder how "c ya" would translate if that were being reported in the Chinese press?) It would help if they just made the recording public.
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I wonder if it is a language translation issue? This handoff, and/or the pilot's response, may not have been in English, so maybe we're getting some loose translation of some slang phrase. (For example, I wonder how "c ya" would translate if that were being reported in the Chinese press?) It would help if they just made the recording public.
That's a good point. I didn't think that the communication might not have been in English.
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But even if the communication wasn't English, they still should have been able to realize that the words "Malaysian 370" were included in the transmission, I would think.
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The carrier has released an audio transcript.
http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/content/dam/mas/master/en/pdf/Audio%20Transcript_MH370%20Pilot-ATC_BIT.pdf
For verification, the link is found on this page.
http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/dark-site.html
I have, of course, no idea what process the carrier used to arrive at this transcript. In a normal crash investigation, it would be done by the government agency investigating the crash and released as part of that investigation.
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A submarine joins the search...
http://www.frequentbusinesstraveler.com/2014/04/u-k-sub-joins-search-for-missing-malaysia-airlines-jet/
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China is saying that one of their ships may have detected a signal from the FDR beacon. I wonder if this will turn out to be another dead end.
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China is saying that one of their ships may have detected a signal from the FDR beacon. I wonder if this will turn out to be another dead end.
China's state-run news agency has been about as reliable as the Malaysian government.
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China is saying that one of their ships may have detected a signal from the FDR beacon. I wonder if this will turn out to be another dead end.
China's state-run news agency has been about as reliable as the Malaysian government.
The Aussies have also confirmed what the Chinese have stated. They are looking in the same area as well.
BL.
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The only problem is that the pings were heard from two locations about 375 miles apart
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I read on one of the news feeds that the Chinese vessel also had a pinger of its own on board.
Speculation is that they heard the one on board.
Their "detector" was a hand held device on the end of a pole held over the side of the ship with some iPod like earphones.
I think I'll take the towed sensor array results from the AUS/US combined equipment thanks.
Reports from the Australian ship are two separate pings heard, one for several hours, one for several minutes.
However they have apparently not been able to reacquire the pings as yet.
Water depth at the location was 4500metres (~14,000ft) which is a very long way down to find a couple of boxes smaller than a piece of carry on luggage.
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Yeah, that video of the Chinese strapping a transducer to a broomstick and putting it over the side of a Zodiac did not impress me, nor does that sick green paint they use in their aircraft cockpits (and just about any other machinery they make). I'll stick with the yellow stingray towed behind that Ocean Shield ship that looks like it should capsize in a stiff breeze...
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Aerial search comes to an end...
http://www.frequentbusinesstraveler.com/2014/04/authorities-call-off-aerial-search-for-malaysia-airlines-flight-370/
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That's because the suicidal, evil genius pilot managed to ditch the aircraft and sink it in the deepest possible waters largely intact.
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I think what we will eventually see out of this is first, a totally independent GPS position reporting system via ACARS that is independently powered (solar panel and/or RAT) that cannot be disabled without climbing on top of the aircraft and opening an access panel, and if the problem occurs again a way of bypassing the cockpit altogether and remotely piloting the aircraft just as if it were a drone. At the very least you would have a FMS that takes over whenever the flight deviates significantly from a plan loaded via ACARS. The pilots are in the best position to assess each other due to their long hours working closely together and are going to have to get their shit together when it comes to ratting on each other, perhaps by means of an anonymous feedback/evaluation system of some sort, or else they are going to lose their jobs to automation and drone operators on the ground.
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Interesting, or another false lead?
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/malaysia-airlines-flight-370-georesonance-wreckage-of-a-commercial-airliner-found/
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That Pavel Kursa is a con man from Ukraine. The story, the company's ( GeoResonance ) claim to be able to use magnetic resonance imaging, presumably somehow projected from a satellite (formerly secret Soviet military technology only they have access to) as well as nineteen other undisclosed technologies (doubtless including a TriCorder and talking computer that says, "Working...") analyzed by a "team" of unnamed scientists to detect copper wiring or ceramic engine components 600' underwater from space with resolution apparently better than the optical resolution of geo-survey satellites is so absurd that I cannot stop the belly laughing. It took years of development and magnetic field strengths of 1T along with kilowatts of induced gradient and RF fields at a distance of a foot or so just to be able to align the spin axis of hydrogen atoms in your body and get the sub-millimeter resolution to peer into your body with an MRI scanner, so achieving an equivalent order of magnitude or two better resolution from space with a secret satellite is a joke and a half. They also claimed to have located a sunken WW2 hospital ship (Armenia) in the Black Sea back in 2005... but that wreck has not in fact been found. As with most of these types of operators, their claims of past applications or success are far flung in remote places about the globe (Congo, etc) and impossible to validate, the few identifiable "customers" such as Mr. Pope always seeming to be partners in their adventures. Just a couple scammers, most likely pushing a Pink Sheet stock and trying to cash in on the misery of others.
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Wow. Now /that/ is interesting. Thanks ID!
Sent from my HTC Glacier using Tapatalk 2
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Malaysia Ministry of Transport (MoT) issues preliminary report on MH370...
http://www.nst.com.my/latest/font-color-red-mh370-tragedy-font-mot-releases-preliminary-report-audio-recordings-1.584574
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Australia to continue search for MAS370...
http://www.frequentbusinesstraveler.com/2014/06/hunt-for-missing-malaysia-airlines-plane-to-continue-with-deep-water-survey/