LiveATC Discussion Forums
Aviation => Aviation Accidents/Incidents => Topic started by: johnm1019 on March 24, 2015, 07:01:43 AM
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Any audio around there? Searching now
EDIT: Reuters source
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/24/us-france-crash-airbus-lufthansa-idUSKBN0MK0ZP20150324
FlightAware
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/GWI9525/history/20150324/0835Z/LEBL/EDDL
Departure:
LEBL Barcelona: Feed Available
Center:There are 5 in france
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_en_route_de_la_navigation_a%C3%A9rienne
Most likely Aix-En-Provence, no feed?
Nearby:
LFMN Nice: Approach Feed Available
0900-0930Z, nothing -- someone should look at this feed, crazy clipping for some radios
0930-1000Z, nothing -- also exhibits unusable gain
1000-1030Z, nothing
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Got the recording of it's departure from BCN anyone?
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CNN reporting that there was a mayday call.
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According to the "DGAC", It looks like ATC did send the mayday call, not the pilots.
14 h 40. L'équipage de Germanwings n'a pas émis d'appel de détresse
L'équipage de la compagnie Germanwings n'a pas émis d'appel de détresse, a indiqué la Direction générale de l'aviation civile. « L'équipage n'a pas émis de 'mayday'. C'est le contrôle aérien qui a décidé de déclarer l'avion en détresse car il n'avait plus aucun contact avec l'équipage et l'avion », a-t-elle expliqué.
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On the LEBL TWR 0900-0930Z at approx 1:40 you hear them change frequency as GWI18G.
God bless them all,
James
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From: Aeroinside.com, March 24, 2015
http://www.aeroinside.com/item/5473/germanwings-a320-near-barcelonnette-on-mar-24th-2015-lost-height-and-impacted-terrain
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Thoughts and prayers to the passengers, crew, families, and the rescuers going into this area of remarkable terrain...
... :cry:...
Just some data on the aircraft:
The aircraft is D-AIPX (CN 147), an A320-211 operated by Germanwings. She is pictured below, this image taken in Sept of 2014.
She was built in 1990, and delivered new to Lufthansa on 02/05/1991. She spent her life operating for Lufthansa and Germanwings.
(They seemed to share the airframe. Germanwings is the low cost branch of Lufthansa.)
On 07/10/2003, she was transferred to Germanwings.
On 07/22/2004, she was transferred back to Lufthansa.
And finally, on 01/31/2014, she was transferred back to Germanwings, the entire time maintaining the same German registration.
Preliminary AvHerald Article:
http://avherald.com/h?article=483a5651&opt=0
Lots of news clips from CNN, as per usual wit the media, take them with a grain of salt:
http://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2015/03/24/ath-gorani-mountain-guide-germanwings-plane-crash.cnn/video/playlists/germanwings-flight-9525-plane-crash/
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Looking at Flightaware data..plane was in a rapid descent with airspeed decreasing indicating a controlled descent perhaps with speed brakes deployed. In the last few second they got real low and slow with airspeed less than 150 kts with direction course varying from Northeast to southeast. Must have been disoriented.. The pilot was reported to have squawked 7700 prior to descent. Equipment failure seems the most likely then IMC disorientation?
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I doubt IMC taking them down from cruise altitude. Looks to me like another case of a "100% reliable" HAL 9000 taking down a fly-by-wire Airbus and, just as we saw with Air France over the Atlantic, my prediction is that the CVR will show the crew discussing various aspects of the law as they held nose-high in a stall for eight or ten minutes throughout the descent. Loss of power would have absolutely resulted in a MayDay call, but confusion, distraction and disorientation are seldom acknowledged outside the cockpit, especially with veteran pilots. Just another reason why I am always uncomfortable riding in any fly-by-wire aircraft that is not equipped with ejection seats.
If you think I sound angry, it's because I am... ever since I saw that Airbus fly into the trees after a low pass at a French air show (HAL wouldn't let them spool the engines back up with the gear down) in the late 80's I have never believed fly-by-wire to be suitable for commercial passenger aircraft. In almost all cases where these aircraft encounter unanticipated (by the mastermind engineers) circumstances or events and can no longer keep the aircraft in a safe condition or permit avoidance of unsafe conditions, they hand the pilot either an uncontrollable or unrecoverable aircraft.
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Looking at Flightaware data..plane was in a rapid descent with airspeed decreasing indicating a controlled descent perhaps with speed brakes deployed. In the last few second they got real low and slow with airspeed less than 150 kts with direction course varying from Northeast to southeast. Must have been disoriented.. The pilot was reported to have squawked 7700 prior to descent. Equipment failure seems the most likely then IMC disorientation?
I had heard that there was a 50 kias or so variance during the climb out, but not on the decent. I had not heard that the aircraft slowed to as low as 150 kias on the decent. This is far below clean stall speed in the A320, if i am not mistaken. In fact, radar tracks show the opposite, see the latest from AvHerald. The article indicates the aircraft impacted the ground at a high rate of speed. Radar track does not indicate the turn you mention either... Where did you hear that? Flightaware shows the path continuing northeast:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/GWI9525/history/20150324/0835Z/LEBL/EDDL
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/GWI9525/history/20150324/0835Z/LEBL/EDDL/tracklog
On the Track Log, the ADS-B Data in incomplete, and is "ESTIMATED"...
The 7700 squawk is unconfirmed as well at this time. ATC declared a MAYDAY on the aircraft's behalf after they descended below safe altitude.
Avhearld:
"On Mar 25th 2015 France's Minister of Interior reported that the recovered black box was the cockpit voice recorder. The CVR is damaged but usable.
On Mar 25th 2015 the French BEA reported in a press conference, that the aircraft was following its planned flight path. After cruising at FL380 for a little while the aircraft began to descend at about 09:30Z at a rate of 3500 fpm. The last radar position recorded by French ATC was at 6175 feet MSL at 09:40:47Z very close to the point of impact. The aircraft impacted ground at very high speed. The CVR was found on site at about 17:00L and handed over to the BEA, at 09:45L on Mar 25th the memory module was removed from the part left pretty much intact, there were some problems reading the data, but the BEA have been able to extract the audio file that can be used. This concluded the official part of the BEA press conference. In the questions the BEA reported, they have been able to listen to the audio for a first time, but having the audio only for a few minutes prior to the press conference are unable to make any further statement. The debris and distribution of debris does not suggest there has been any explosion on board of the aircraft. When confronted by journalists with rumours originating in Finnish media quoting Finland's CAA about a burst windshield, the BEA said they have no such information."
http://avherald.com/h?article=483a5651&opt=0
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BREAKING NEWS...
CNN is reporting one of the pilots may have been locked out of the cockpit...
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NYtimes is reporting that an investigation source says one pilot was locked out of the cockpit and when he discovered it, he knocked and with no response started trying to smash the door down
http://goo.gl/eKgHgU
WOW.... looking like an intentional crash
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Perhaps one of the pilots became incapacitated and the door was locked. Massive heart attacks happen far more frequently than rogue pilots.
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Perhaps one of the pilots became incapacitated and the door was locked. Massive heart attacks happen far more frequently than rogue pilots.
If it was a:
1- massive heart attack or other health problem and
2- it happened to occur after the PIC locked the door and
3- the PIC happened to slump perfectly over to initiate a straight line decent and
4- it happened during the 2 minutes one pilot is in the head
5- and the emergency code to gain entry didn't work or was changed or the pilot didn't know it
well... it might not be more common than rogue pilots.... dunno
In the article, another investigator strongly hinted at the rogue scenario.
we'll see
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Perhaps one of the pilots became incapacitated and the door was locked. Massive heart attacks happen far more frequently than rogue pilots.
Couldn't agree more. It is best to wait for the investigators to thoroughly evaluate all of the factors in this accident. I trust them far more than the NYT or CNN quoting an anonymous source.
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Now FOX reporting co pilot intentionally crashed the plane..
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My father, who was watching news, stated that the news stated that the CVR recording did indicate that the plane was intentionally crashed by the co-pilot. So it's not just news speculation, there is evidence to back it up.
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What is going through a persons head for them to even consider doing something like this? It's not suicide, it is mass murder. I would like to know how a pilot gets this far gone without red flags?
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http://forum.flightradar24.com/threads/8650-We-have-analysed-the-raw-data-from-the-transponder-of-4U9525-and-found-some-more-dat?p=64616
It appears autopilot was deliberately configured for full descent into terrain
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What is going through a persons head for them to even consider doing something like this? It's not suicide, it is mass murder. I would like to know how a pilot gets this far gone without red flags?
Good questions - no answers. Very sad....
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My father, again watching the news, said that investigators apparently searched the co-pilots house and found a torn up peice of paper that excused him from flying...and evidence of a medical problem, what kind they are not saying.
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My father, again watching the news, said that investigators apparently searched the co-pilots house and found a torn up peice of paper that excused him from flying...and evidence of a medical problem, what kind they are not saying.
Dont trust the media 100% on this one here until final conclusion has been made by the investigation team.
The piece of paper police found is part of the standard process for sick leave in Germany.
It is required so that employers and health insurance will continue to pay your salary while on sick leave.
Could even be regarding a flu or back pain !
No details are being disclosed about the nature of the diagnosis, but a statement was made that the alleged "depression" is incorrect.
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Could even be regarding a flu or back pain !
No details are being disclosed about the nature of the diagnosis, but a statement was made that the alleged "depression" is incorrect.
NYTimes has quoted numerous sources that it was a psychiatric condition other than depression and that he was admitted to a hospital for evaluation twice in the last 60 days (!) ... that's pretty significant... to get admitted means a serious condition or symptoms
man is Lufthansa going to be stroking some checks ....
http://goo.gl/OdBcI5
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I'm just not convinced by anything that media says about him. Even if he was diagnosed with depression I don't believe he would crash an airplane with 150 souls on board.
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I'm just not convinced by anything that media says about him. Even if he was diagnosed with depression I don't believe he would crash an airplane with 150 souls on board.
I guess I don't understand the persistent belief in this thread, in spite of obvious logical evidence from dozens of sources, that a pilot must be some kind of superior being that is immune to any sort of bias, evil, illness, or whatever defect he had which caused him to do this.
I'm a pilot also like almost everyone here, but I don't get why there is so much denial going on....
he did it...
it was obvious from the first report of the audio...
he was insane in some way...
it was obvious from his actions and the hundreds of articles that followed about his health history
yes, he's a pilot, but that doesn't make him any better than the general population
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I'm not saying if he was a pilot he had to be better than the general population. I think I'll just have to wait for the final report to believe what happened.
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Good read:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/27/opinions/abend-germanwings-pilot-health/
Les Abend has been a commercial pilot for decades, he has written columns for FLYING magazine and is an Aviation Analyst for CNN. He, compared to most other analysts the media trots out, is "our guy on the inside", if you will. He is a Pilot, Captain, in fact. His input and opinions hold more water for me then an "outsider" or non-pilot.
Pilots are human too, we all know this. But at the same time, pilots are charged with the responsibility of making sure his or her passengers arrive safe at their destination. Pilots are held to a higher level, along with ship, rail, and bus crew members. All charged with passenger responsibility. If in fact, the First Officer deliberately caused this crash, it is obvious that there was something amiss with him and his mental state. It is in a pilots DNA to "fly the plane". I was watching CNN last night, and a reporter was at a training center with an A320 simulator. The instructor was showing the reporter what it might have looked like from the cockpit as the copilot flew the airplane into the French Alps. Seated in the right seat, he adjusted the altitude hold down to 100 ft, and increased the vertical speed downward. The "aircraft" raced towards the mountains. The GPWS started going off. The Master Caution began blaring. If one has never heard the Airbus Master Caution, if gets your attention, that is for sure. The reporters eyes were the size of fifty cent pieces as the computer-generated mountains wizzed by the windows. The instructor allowed the demonstration to get to a certain point and then he said something to the effect of "I can't do this, you know what? Let's get out of here." He disconnected the autopilot, pushed up the power, and pulled the nose up, silenced the Master Caution, and "flew the airplane" to safety.
My point is, even in a simulator, pilots are determined to not allow the aircraft to crash. It appears in this instance, the situation this pilot was dealing with was hidden from Lufthansa and Germanwings. I am sure he feared loosing his job. I am sure he loved flying. I am sure it was his passion. Lufthansa stated, other then a gap in his training record, he was a flawless pilot with a clean record. The leg down to Barcelona was uneventful. Maybe the Captain didn't have to piss on that leg. Maybe this was spur of the moment, or, maybe he had thought about it before and was waiting for the right time. When the Captain got up to use the restroom, he saw his chance, and locked the door. We may never truly know what was going on inside his head.
This is not the first time a pilot-suicide has ended the lives of the innocent:
http://news.aviation-safety.net/2015/03/26/list-of-aircraft-accidents-and-incidents-deliberately-caused-by-pilots/
This is a "tour" of an A320 flight deck. At the 5:40 mark, she pushes the "TEST" button on the ENG #1 FIRE SYSTEM, it lights up and sounds the MASTER CAUTION:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdQgGheK4KI
Also, at the 5:00 mark, the MASTER CAUTION is demonstrated and silenced via the button on the glareshield:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqKeSO6msDk
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I've been thinking about this for a while now, the media is suggesting that the copilot reprogrammed the autopilot for the decent...I'm wondering if he did...
In Airbus equipment, the computer protects the aircraft under what is known as NORMAL LAW. If the computer looses data or parameters, it will switch to ALTERNATE LAW. In ALTERNATE LAW, some protections are removed. In NORMAL LAW however, it is impossible to over-rotate or over-bank the airplane. This limits vertical climb and decent, and bank angle in turns. My thought is he may have turned off the ALTITUDE HOLD on the autopilot, and simply pushed the sidestick forward and held it. The computer will only allow the the aircraft to reach 15 degrees down angle before NORMAL LAW protections kick in, regardless of sidestick input. It is impossible to nose-dive an Airbus under NORMAL LAW conditions. We will have to wait for the Flight Data Recorder to be found and analyzed before we will know for sure...
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I've been thinking about this for a while now, the media is suggesting that the copilot reprogrammed the autopilot for the decent...I'm wondering if he did...
The aircraft had a modern ADSB transmitter which also transmits the target altitude selected on the autopilot panel. The data shows the autopilot was set to 38000ft until 09:30:52Z. At 09:30:54Z the altitude was 13000ft (someone has started dialing on the altitude knob) and at 09:30:55Z it was set at 100ft (the minimum setting), where it remained until the signal was lost.
The data was also decoded by flightradar:
http://forum.flightradar24.com/threads/8650-We-have-analysed-the-raw-data-from-the-transponder-of-4U9525-and-found-some-more-dat
The investigators surely also have the recordings of the official radar data. Unfortunately, it's pretty conclusive that someone in the cockpit actually had changed the AP setting.
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I've been thinking about this for a while now, the media is suggesting that the copilot reprogrammed the autopilot for the decent...I'm wondering if he did...
The aircraft had a modern ADSB transmitter which also transmits the target altitude selected on the autopilot panel. The data shows the autopilot was set to 38000ft until 09:30:52Z. At 09:30:54Z the altitude was 13000ft (someone has started dialing on the altitude knob) and at 09:30:55Z it was set at 100ft (the minimum setting), where it remained until the signal was lost.
The data was also decoded by flightradar:
http://forum.flightradar24.com/threads/8650-We-have-analysed-the-raw-data-from-the-transponder-of-4U9525-and-found-some-more-dat
The investigators surely also have the recordings of the official radar data. Unfortunately, it's pretty conclusive that someone in the cockpit actually had changed the AP setting.
I had heard this data was available, however I had not seen it. In fact, the first set of ADS-B data I had seen was "incomplete"... Once one sees it in black and white, it is pretty obvious that the autopilot was reprogrammed. Thanks for sharing this information. I almost think that makes the event even more sinister then attempting to nosedive the airplane...to change the altitude hold selector, and sit back and watch...
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Dont trust the media 100% on this one here until final conclusion has been made by the investigation team.
I may not have heard Greg Feith sounding off about this one, but I'd trust "insiders" that were former NTSB investigators more than any other. My father did not say who the source of the information was, possibly it was an informant on the current investigation, any more than to say the channel he was watching at the time. While I agree we have to wait for the investigation to be completed and a report of some kind to come out, people are, by nature, are beings who love gossip, speculation, and scandle.
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Came across this article...thought I'd share...
http://www.thv11.com/story/news/world/2015/04/02/germanwings-copilot-depression/70818268/
Ron
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"On Apr 3rd 2015 the French BEA reported that the flight data recorder was received by the BEA on Apr 2nd 2015, it was opened and a first read out of the data showed, that the pilot in the cockpit used the autopilot to descend the aircraft down to 100 feet, on several occasions the speed of the aircraft was adjusted during the descent."
From:
http://avherald.com/h?article=483a5651&opt=0