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Air Traffic Monitoring => Aviation Audio Clips => Topic started by: KSYR-pjr on January 04, 2007, 01:06:37 PM

Title: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: KSYR-pjr on January 04, 2007, 01:06:37 PM
Thanks go to kkjlai for this find.  I was just the editor of the clip.  :)

A Toronto controller, not realizing his mike was open and blocking aircraft readbacks, lets loose a series of swear words.  Ouch!

(Clip contains words that may be offensive to some - listener discretion advised)

Note that I included a minute or two of responses after the slip-up in this clip, but they are somewhat disjointed due to this  feed scanning other frequencies.  The gist of the conversation is very obvious, however.

Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: Acey on January 04, 2007, 01:32:57 PM
I was wondering why I hadn't heard my favourite guy for a while. That's shocking.  After listening to the Toronto feed for a year and a half, that's my favourite controller, for certain. Really unlucky that the pilot that called right after happened to be a woman.  This controller showed nothing but enthusiasm and class, I looked forward to hearing him.  Shame, really. :-o :-(

This is the controller who handled Air France 358 as he came in on August 2, 2005.  After the crash, he expedited a heavy KLM flight and a few Air Canada's off the 24L localizer to their alternates, while sounding stressed because he didn't know the severity of the AF incident, but he handled it well.

Hope he gets back to work soon, and that this doesn't impact his controlling future.
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: flyer_d on January 04, 2007, 03:21:10 PM
Ouch.

If it had been me flying, I might have wanted to give this read back:  "Up to one-three thousand, Jazz, s__ f__ c__, 7844."

Also, Adrian8, it wasn't unlucky.  That's who he was insulting.  He thought she wasn't responding.

Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: Acey on January 04, 2007, 03:40:07 PM
Also, Adrian8, it wasn't unlucky.  That's who he was insulting.  He thought she wasn't responding.

In the A.net thread they're making a good case that he was referring to the communications equipment and whatever was happening, not specifically the female pilot.  Even so, I said "unlucky" because controllers lots of things about pilots under their breath, it was just unlucky that this one got on frequency.
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: lostmoon on January 04, 2007, 03:57:58 PM
My golly! That was embarrassing for everyone, I am sure. Terribly unfortunate. The saying: "What you don't know [in this case, "hear"] can't hurt you" really holds so true in this case.

Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: Acey on January 04, 2007, 04:19:46 PM
Haven't heard him back yet, this happened 15 days ago.
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: flyer_d on January 04, 2007, 04:23:21 PM
In the A.net thread they're making a good case that he was referring to the communications equipment and whatever was happening, not specifically the female pilot.

Yeah, I heard that at the end of the clip too.  Of course, we'll never know for sure.  (I meant to add to my earlier post -- "that's how I interpret it".)

Can you provide a link to the other thread?
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: kkjlai on January 04, 2007, 04:38:34 PM
Yeah, I heard that at the end of the clip too.  Of course, we'll never know for sure.  (I meant to add to my earlier post -- "that's how I interpret it".)

Can you provide a link to the other thread?

Try:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/3179934/

kkjlai
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: RayZor on January 04, 2007, 07:03:14 PM
Ouch I feel bad for that guy.  I think it's kind of unfair that he gets in so much trouble over this; he didn't even know he  was transmitting, and was frustrated that pilots were not receiving his transmissions.  Didn't he swear at the first pilot to say no offense and not the woman pilot?
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: dan9125 on January 04, 2007, 09:30:08 PM
Great clip, my jaw dropped when I listened to that one. The female pilot was a good sport about the whole thing though.

  Dan
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: digger on January 04, 2007, 10:22:25 PM
Quote
In the A.net thread they're making a good case that he was referring to the communications equipment and whatever was happening, not specifically the female pilot.


Sorry. I don't buy that. If you listen to the unedited version, at 28:09 she checks in and he radar identifies her. From then on, there's no question that there's a woman associated with that callsign. Besides which, he wasn't aware that he had an equipment problem until after he'd said it.
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: flyer_d on January 04, 2007, 10:25:29 PM
Quote
In the A.net thread they're making a good case that he was referring to the communications equipment and whatever was happening, not specifically the female pilot.


Sorry. I don't buy that. If you listen to the unedited version, at 28:09 she checks in and he radar identifies her. From then on, there's no question that there's a woman associated with that callsign. Besides which, he wasn't aware that he had an equipment problem until after he'd said it.

Exactly what I was thinking.  She was very gracious to give him the "out" that she did.
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: Acey on January 04, 2007, 10:42:07 PM
Quote
In the A.net thread they're making a good case that he was referring to the communications equipment and whatever was happening, not specifically the female pilot.


Sorry. I don't buy that. If you listen to the unedited version, at 28:09 she checks in and he radar identifies her. From then on, there's no question that there's a woman associated with that callsign. Besides which, he wasn't aware that he had an equipment problem until after he'd said it.

Exactly what I was thinking.  She was very gracious to give him the "out" that she did.

That's most likely the case here, as dissapointing as it is. I was just curious as to why several pilots piped in to say that he was referring to the equipment, and was stressed out etc.  The woman that says "I don't think he was reffering to the female pilot of Air Canada", who was that?
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: KSYR-pjr on January 05, 2007, 08:50:54 AM
I was just curious as to why several pilots piped in to say that he was referring to the equipment, and was stressed out etc. 

Speaking as a general aviation IFR pilot, I suspect that the pilots recognized the controller was stressed and were giving him a break.  Additionally, it sounds much more professional to offer compassion over the airwaves rather than condemnation.

The woman that says "I don't think he was reffering to the female pilot of Air Canada", who was that?

My interpretation is that the pilot was referring to the aircraft's airline name, rather than ATC callsign.  Jazz is a regional carrier for Air Canada, are they not?
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: bcrosby on January 05, 2007, 09:54:04 AM
My interpretation is that the pilot was referring to the aircraft's airline name, rather than ATC callsign.  Jazz is a regional carrier for Air Canada, are they not?

That is correct.
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: digger on January 06, 2007, 12:06:44 AM
Without going back and listening to the clip again, was it not a mainline Air Canada pilot that commented that he was flying with a female FO that night, and in 32 years he'd never heard anything like that? I think that may be the source of some confusion. I still have no doubt that the controller was referring to the female Jazz pilot.

And I do have to say that she definitely is a class act. If anyone had reason to make a fuss, it was her, and she was perfectly calm and non-accusatory about the whole thing.
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: Check Airman on January 06, 2007, 10:27:57 PM
In my opinion, he clearly wasn't aiming anything at her. I don't see why he should get anything more than a reminder that the mic can be stuck.
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: KSYR-pjr on January 06, 2007, 10:46:35 PM
In my opinion, he clearly wasn't aiming anything at her. I don't see why he should get anything more than a reminder that the mic can be stuck.

Swearing over a public-accessible frequency is against FCC (Federal Communications Commission) regulations here in the States and can result in some hefty fines from that governing body.  You just need to look at Howard Stern for proof of that.   Canada's FCC-equivalent has similar, if not tougher, rules.  And yes, the FCC in the States does control some aspects of air-to-air and air-to-ground communication frequencies.  I would imagine that this is the same in Canada.

Regardless of where his tirade was directed,  the controller swore over the air.   The fine was probably from the FCC-equivalent branch of the government (assuming there was one actually levied) and the suspension was most likely handed down by the agency for which he was working. 
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: bphendri on January 07, 2007, 01:12:07 AM

[/quote]

Swearing over a public-accessible frequency is against FCC (Federal Communications Commission) regulations here in the States and can result in some hefty fines 
[/quote]

Very well stated,  As a amateur radio operator, and a Ship Station license holder, and for pretty much all radio services, the penalties for making profane statements is pretty much the same.  a $10,000 fine and or 10 years in prison, plus the revokation of ones operating permit.  Weather or not it is directed toward anyone, or unintentional.

My mother is also a dispatcher for Highway Patrol, and if she made such a blunder, she would be looking at immediate termination, possibly without even much of an investigation, but the Lt. listening to the tapes.  Even though the same could be said that she works in a stressfull enviroment.

It's too bad this happened, especially if he was a good controller, but this sort of thing just isn't tollerated in many work places.



Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: bcrosby on January 07, 2007, 01:29:41 PM
Hmm..

Who In Canada is responsible for enforcing such laws, is it Industry Canada or the CRTC?

My licence was issued by Industry Canada but I know that the CRTC handles violations on tv/radio. What about transmissions on other wavelengths/frequencies?
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: Acey on January 07, 2007, 02:03:46 PM
I'm thinking that NavCanada has complete authority over the situation.
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: Pygmie on January 07, 2007, 02:21:10 PM
No, Nav Canada is not an enforcement or regulating body.  They could suspend the controller, but any fines would be handed down by Industry Canada.

Also, I'd be VERY suprised if this controller was suspended for very long, if at all.
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: digger on January 07, 2007, 05:49:03 PM
My favorite controller once said, when someone used naughty language on her frequency, "I'm more afriad of the FCC than I am of the FAA."
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: Check Airman on January 07, 2007, 11:14:30 PM
The difference between the personalities stated and the unfortunate controller is that the controller did not intentionally make the broadcast. I suppose the guys who want him hanged have never made a mistake...Let those without sin cast the first stone...
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: KSYR-pjr on January 08, 2007, 09:26:05 AM
. I suppose the guys who want him hanged have never made a mistake...Let those without sin cast the first stone...

I am not sure to whom you are directing this but since I replied to you the first time, I'll assume it was me.  My post was simply stating a fact that the action itself was against a regulation, not implying innocence or guilt.     Unlike your post, mine was devoid of opinion.


Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: dan9125 on January 08, 2007, 10:48:29 AM
I'm thinking this could make a good Sowthwest airlines ad.....want to get away?
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: Acey on January 08, 2007, 06:19:23 PM
I'm thinking this could make a good Sowthwest airlines ad.....want to get away?

I think getting back to work ASAP is what this guy wants.
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: Check Airman on January 08, 2007, 06:32:59 PM
I'm not trying to throw words at anybody here. Sorry if that was the impression. I'm just surprised at the (apparant) lack of sympathy for what was obviously an honest mistake.
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: Acey on January 08, 2007, 07:36:22 PM
I'm just surprised at the (apparant) lack of sympathy for what was obviously an honest mistake.

I agree with you.  Around the web I've been seeing things like "he should be instantly fired" or "he should be gone".  I don't see how punishment that severe could be constructive in any way.
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: bphendri on January 09, 2007, 11:45:10 AM
. I'm just surprised at the (apparant) lack of sympathy for what was obviously an honest mistake.

Its not a lack of symptahy on our part. Mistakes happen we have all been there, If it was simply up to the aviation enthusiast community, the guy would allready be back at work with a stern warning.

However in this day and age with the PC police running rampant, and  with most government agencies, it's not that simple.

You start getting into the nice area of ZERO tolerance, and thats where you get screwed and have little or no defense.

Belive me.. I've been there!!!!  It's not fun, and the outcomes are usually not pretty.
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: Check Airman on January 09, 2007, 09:07:48 PM
Ok I get your point. But i still don't see why the situation warrants anything more than an oral reminder to always have an eye on the transmit light.
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: Acey on January 09, 2007, 11:10:48 PM
But i still don't see why the situation warrants anything more than an oral reminder...

Becuse he called a female pilot one of the dirtiest words in the English language, be it inadvertently.  By the way, he's back. :-D :-D :-D Running departure right now.  Let's hope he doesn't have any more "slips".
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: digger on January 10, 2007, 02:14:00 AM
It's sort of like the distinction between murder and manslaughter. (And I'm not trying to elevate it to anything resembling that level of seriousness, but just trying to illustrate the same sort of difference in intent vs outcome.)

If it had been done with premeditation and malice, it would be more serious yet.

Floor your gas pedal and run down your worst enemy with your car, and there will be severe consequences. Inadvertantly run a red light and run over a perfect stranger, and there will be somewhat different consequences, but you'll still be in trouble Run over someone who darts out from between two parked cars, and the determination might be that you are blameless.

See the similarity/difference?
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: bphendri on January 10, 2007, 03:04:57 AM
Glad he is back..

I had a totaly different outcome with the PC Police!


Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: Studentpilo on January 10, 2007, 05:17:50 PM
I look at it this way. No matter what you do you are always going to end up offending somewhere. This is aviation, tons of stress, cursing is going to happen. Navcanda, the FAA, the JAA whatever spend good money to train these controllers. It would be a waste of time/money/talent to punish someone severely for saying what you hear in movies all the time (Hell we pay to go see those!!). Remind him to watch the mouth, watch the tx light and send him back to work pushing tin and being an asset to society.
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: MikeA on January 10, 2007, 09:03:14 PM
Well Have you listened to the Citezens Band radios lately the same rules apply.  But they use foul language a lot.  And they don't get in truoble at all.  You hear about 5 words in 10 mins.  That still doesn't make it right. But it happens sometimes.

In my opionion I think apolgies should be said and I think a supension sould apply  for up to 10 days and then back to work.  Then if it continues to be a problem the further punishment should apply. It does take time and money to train new controllers.  At least he is back though.
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: Acey on January 11, 2007, 07:44:47 PM
... they use foul language a lot.  And they don't get in truoble at all.  You hear about 5 words in 10 mins.

The difference is this: are there men who are in authority on the frequency calling females arguably the dirtiest word in this language.  I understand your point, but foul language not directed at anyone in particular is much less harmless.
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: digger on January 11, 2007, 08:02:46 PM
Has anyone considered that the roles could just as easily be reversed? How would you react to an annoyed male pilot (with an inadvertantly open mic), making the same reference to a female controller?

Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: Check Airman on January 12, 2007, 01:40:37 AM
I don't think he was throwing words at the specific female pilot. Just swearing randomly. i doubt a controller has time to sit and remember if the voice on ABCXXXX was male or female. As a pilot, when i fly, i'm listening for my callsign. I honestly couldn't tell you what the last controller i spoke to sounded like. That's me listening for 1 voice from 1 controller. Imagine the energy it would take for one controller to remember which voice goes with which flight number. I'm sure in normal ops, they don't. The guy was just using his fav. swear word. The bit with the female pilot is simply coincindence in my opinion.
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: KSYR-pjr on January 12, 2007, 08:08:04 AM
I honestly couldn't tell you what the last controller i spoke to sounded like. That's me listening for 1 voice from 1 controller. Imagine the energy it would take for one controller to remember which voice goes with which flight number.

You didn't say how often you fly (given the check airman moniker sign here, it seems as if you are a professional?), but I fly twice to three times a week, every week for the last three years, under part 91 (General Aviation) - I use my aircraft to commute to work in the Northeast US and for Angel Flight missions.

As a counter to your data point, I can remember not only last night's tower and departure controllers' voices (they both were men), I can remember the male in the intermediary approach facility, the male that handled me on approach to my airport, and the female that handled me on tower frequency to land.  Departure and destination airports are archived here if you want to hear proof.  :)

Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: flyer_d on January 12, 2007, 02:05:49 PM
I honestly couldn't tell you what the last controller i spoke to sounded like.

That may be true for you, but it is not the case for most pilots.  This has been proven by the (rather humorous) reviews of pilots' reactions to female controllers.  IIRC, the results showed that the pilots were more courteous, more precise (eg, using standard phrases), and more likely to sign off with "good day ma'am" (rather than just "good day").

As to your main point, if you and I were in a room full of people, and I said --

"Check Airman, come over here.  [no response]  Hey Check Airman -- come here!  [no response]  Hey Check Airman, can you hear me, you stupid d___head!"

-- do you think there would be any questions I was talking about you?  Sure, it's not an absolute, but, as the magic 8 ball used to say, "signs point to yes."
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: digger on January 12, 2007, 02:32:46 PM
We can discuss it until the cows come home, and unless the controller in question comes on here and either fesses up, or makes a convincing denial, we're never going to know for sure.

Personally, I don't think the controller was aware of any "equipment problem" at the time the words were said--he was still trying to reach what he thought was an unresponsive pilot.

The fact is that he made a comment, and what went over the air (and now the internet), was disrespectful to the pilot, contained a profanity, and a gender-specific profanity, while he was attempting to communicate with a pilot of the opposite gender. Rightly or wrongly, that's what he's being judged on, and the unfortunate truth is that the standard of, "if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck..." is going to prevail.

There's a good lesson here for all concerned, on either side of the mic--as someone said above, treat every mic as if it's hot...
Title: Re: YYZ controller swears when his mike was inadvertantly live
Post by: flyer_d on January 12, 2007, 03:57:51 PM
Personally, I don't think the controller was aware of any "equipment problem" at the time the words were said--he was still trying to reach what he thought was an unresponsive pilot. . . . There's a good lesson here for all concerned, on either side of the mic--as someone said above, treat every mic as if it's hot...

Agreed, and well said.