Author Topic: We don't need any Air Traffic Controllers!  (Read 27102 times)

Offline fholbert

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We don't need any Air Traffic Controllers!
« on: January 07, 2008, 09:34:43 PM »


Frank Holbert
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Offline KSYR-pjr

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Re: We don't need any Air Traffic Controllers!
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2008, 10:00:06 PM »
Hmm.... while this pictorial is indeed a vivid example of an "uncontrolled airport," there are also many examples of midair collisions at controlled airports, too, that contradict this subject-implied premise (if it is not in jest). 

The recent midair at Farmingdale, NY (clip posted in the audio section of this site) that fortunately resulted in no fatalities, as well as one at Caldwell, NJ, and one out in southern California that both resulted in at least four deaths come immediately to mind.

Nonetheless, these are incredible shots.  Do you know if they were taken from a still camera or a video camera and then screen-captured?   The witness was really on the ball here.
Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY

Offline fholbert

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Re: We don't need any Air Traffic Controllers!
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2008, 10:23:11 PM »
Nonetheless, these are incredible shots.  Do you know if they were taken from a still camera or a video camera and then screen-captured?   The witness was really on the ball here.

No one knows who took them?

**********************************************************************************   Report created 1/7/2008   Record 5                                       ********************************************************************************** IDENTIFICATION  Regis#: 8037W        Make/Model: PA28      Description: PA-28 CHEROKEE, ARROW, WARRIOR, ACHER, D  Date: 01/01/2008     Time: 2215   Event Type: Accident   Highest Injury: None     Mid Air: Y    Missing: N  Damage: Minor LOCATION  City: NAPA   State: CA   Country: US DESCRIPTION  N8037W, A PIPER PA 28-180 ON FINAL APPROACH, STRUCK ANOTHER AIRCRAFT,   N15EX, A GLASTAR, BOTH AIRCRAFT LANDED WITHOUT INCIDENT, NO INJURIES   REPORTED, N8037W SUSTAINED MINOR DAMAGE, N15EX SUSTAINED SUBSTANTIAL   DAMAGE, SONOMA VALLEYAIRPORT, NAPA, CA INJURY DATA      Total Fatal:   0                 # Crew:   1     Fat:   0     Ser:   0     Min:   0     Unk:                     # Pass:   0     Fat:   0     Ser:   0     Min:   0     Unk:                     # Grnd:         Fat:   0     Ser:   0     Min:   0     Unk:     WEATHER: APC 09015G20KT 10SM CLR 14/01 A3021 OTHER DATA  Activity: Unknown      Phase: Approach      Operation: OTHER    FAA FSDO: SACRAMENTO, CA  (WP25)                Entry date: 01/02/2008 

Frank Holbert
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Offline Panop

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Re: We don't need any Air Traffic Controllers!
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2008, 11:04:20 AM »
Maybe not but I bet I know what the pile of brown stuff near the runway comprised!! :-o

Offline bcrosby

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Re: We don't need any Air Traffic Controllers!
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2008, 04:53:16 PM »
Hrm..

This looks like your typical high wing/low wing  collision. Both of them are in each others blind spots.


Offline tyketto

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Re: We don't need any Air Traffic Controllers!
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2008, 05:12:40 PM »
Hrm..

This looks like your typical high wing/low wing  collision. Both of them are in each others blind spots.

What makes it worse, is that if this happened at KAPC, that's a towered Class D field! What was the controller doing to miss this deal? Under most operational errors, the controller and possibly the supervisor is sent back to training, but for something like this, would they pull the controllers ticket or sack him?

BL.

Offline KSYR-pjr

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Re: We don't need any Air Traffic Controllers!
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2008, 05:27:55 PM »
What makes it worse, is that if this happened at KAPC, that's a towered Class D field!

The accident happened at Sonoma Valley Airport, an uncontrolled airport. 

To comment on your other point about the controllers, flying into a class D airport does NOT relieve the pilot of SEE and AVOID.  If there is a midair in class D airspace, the pilots will still be found to be at fault. 
Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY

Offline Greg01

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Re: We don't need any Air Traffic Controllers!
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2008, 05:57:42 PM »
Sonoma is just on the other side of the county border from APC.


Offline mk

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Re: We don't need any Air Traffic Controllers!
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2008, 10:38:11 PM »
true true...class b is the only airspace where vfr a/c are insured sep. from other vfr a/c.   :mrgreen:
« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 08:15:27 PM by mk »


Offline fholbert

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Re: We don't need any Air Traffic Controllers!
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2008, 10:45:10 AM »
true true...class b is the only airspace where vfr a/c are insured sep. from other vfr a/c.   :mrgreen:

How about a TRSA?
Frank Holbert
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Offline davolijj

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Re: We don't need any Air Traffic Controllers!
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2008, 11:13:23 AM »
It's true, controllers working TRSA airspace will separate VFRs from eachother.  But you don't need a clearance to enter TRSA airspace so VFRs receiving flight following cannot be gauranteed separation from non-participating aircraft.
Regards
JD

Offline mk

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Re: We don't need any Air Traffic Controllers!
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2008, 03:38:57 PM »
true true...i did forget the trsa

but you're banking on that other vfr a/c's participation for the sep. to be applied.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2008, 06:49:18 PM by mk »

Offline KSYR-pjr

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Re: We don't need any Air Traffic Controllers!
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2008, 04:10:15 PM »
Speaking only of US airspace - Unlike class C airspace, participation in radar services for a VFR pilot in TRSA airspace is not mandatory so it is possible that there are aircraft using TRSA airspace that are no radar identified.

Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY

Offline fholbert

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Re: We don't need any Air Traffic Controllers!
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2008, 09:37:01 PM »
Speaking only of US airspace - Unlike class C airspace, participation in radar services for a VFR pilot in TRSA airspace is not mandatory so it is possible that there are aircraft using TRSA airspace that are no radar identified.

What do you say if you don't want to participate? Is it still "Negative Stage 3".
Frank Holbert
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Offline Greg01

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Re: We don't need any Air Traffic Controllers!
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2008, 09:47:25 PM »
I think "Negative Stage III" or something like "Negative TRSA service" gets the point across.


Offline KSYR-pjr

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Re: We don't need any Air Traffic Controllers!
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2008, 10:10:54 PM »
What do you say if you don't want to participate? Is it still "Negative Stage 3".

My understanding is that you just don't bother to call the approach facility controlling the TRSA.   As long as you don't enter the class D airspace surrounding the towered facility itself you are good to go. 

I am more or less surrounded by TRSAs here in central NY.  There is one to the east, one to the southwest, and another to the south.    There have been a limited number of times I have skirted their airspaces during scenic flights and didn't want or need to contact them for services.

Never heard of phrase "Negative Stage 3," either in my private pilot training (circa '88-92 and again in 2002) or on the TRSA frequencies.  When do you recall this last being actively used and how was it used?

EDIT:  Duh, of course - if you are departing the class D airport within the TRSA you can decline the services, too.  I was solely thinking passing through the airspace, not departing from within.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2008, 10:13:08 PM by KSYR-pjr »
Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY

Offline fholbert

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Re: We don't need any Air Traffic Controllers!
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2008, 12:22:35 AM »
My understanding is that you just don't bother to call the approach facility controlling the TRSA.   As long as you don't enter the class D airspace surrounding the towered facility itself you are good to go. 

I am more or less surrounded by TRSAs here in central NY.  There is one to the east, one to the southwest, and another to the south.    There have been a limited number of times I have skirted their airspaces during scenic flights and didn't want or need to contact them for services.

Never heard of phrase "Negative Stage 3," either in my private pilot training (circa '88-92 and again in 2002) or on the TRSA frequencies.  When do you recall this last being actively used and how was it used?

I'm really jerking your chain. My first 2 ATC assignments were Stage 3 TRSA approach controls so I have been around them.

"Negative Stage 3" used to be the correct call when there was Stage 1, 2 and 3 TRSAs. If you are landing at a airport served by a TRSA you would still have to talk to approach control since they set the sequence.
Frank Holbert
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Offline KSYR-pjr

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Re: We don't need any Air Traffic Controllers!
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2008, 09:27:23 AM »
I'm really jerking your chain. My first 2 ATC assignments were Stage 3 TRSA approach controls so I have been around them.

Consider chain jerked. :)  I didn't realize you were a controller, too.   
Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY

Offline snipper_cr

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Re: We don't need any Air Traffic Controllers!
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2008, 11:23:36 AM »
I am trying to look at the perspective... and it looks like the Piper descended into the Cessna.  If that is the case, this could be another scary example of the "High wing/low wing" problems where both are blocked because of wing location. Yikes.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

Offline fholbert

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Re: We don't need any Air Traffic Controllers!
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2008, 08:25:09 AM »
I am trying to look at the perspective... and it looks like the Piper descended into the Cessna.  If that is the case, this could be another scary example of the "High wing/low wing" problems where both are blocked because of wing location. Yikes.

I think it's clear that the Piper's low wing played no part in this accident. The nose blocked his view.
Frank Holbert
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Offline moto400ex

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Re: We don't need any Air Traffic Controllers!
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2008, 07:47:17 PM »
I am trying to look at the perspective... and it looks like the Piper descended into the Cessna.  If that is the case, this could be another scary example of the "High wing/low wing" problems where both are blocked because of wing location. Yikes.

I think it's clear that the Piper's low wing played no part in this accident. The nose blocked his view.

Any one heard anything about that mid-air over corona? 

Offline Amante de Aviones

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Re: We don't need any Air Traffic Controllers!
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2008, 08:20:14 PM »
Yea very sad incident 5 people died.  I just wonder how it could have happened

Offline Hollis

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Re: We don't need any Air Traffic Controllers!
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2008, 09:09:04 PM »
Google 'corona midair collision' for info

Offline fholbert

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Re: We don't need any Air Traffic Controllers!
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2008, 12:10:27 AM »
Any one heard anything about that mid-air over corona? 

Yea, that's where I'm based. Met the C-150 pilot the weekend before the accident. He and his pax were thrown out of the plane on impact.
Frank Holbert
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