Author Topic: VFR into IFR.......5 souls 3 kids 1 family  (Read 30226 times)

Offline J4000

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Re: VFR into IFR.......5 souls 3 kids 1 family
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2015, 09:51:33 PM »
Torn about whether the original recording should have been redacted....all these things are learning experiences, particularly for those of use who ply the skies in a less-than compensatory status.  With no disrespect for the deceased, I'm confused as to why the content matters in this forum GIVEN THAT THE FAA TYPICALLY ULTIMATELY RELEASES CVR CONTENT on the worst of events at some later point.  I know this is not CVR, but honestly, after listening to the Buffalo event that killed, what, 30 people, including the newby pilots chatting casually about how they didn't have any actual icing experience....nothing can EVER be that chilling, obscenities or otherwise.

Offline InterpreDemon

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Re: VFR into IFR.......5 souls 3 kids 1 family
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2015, 11:54:42 AM »
Actually, the FAA or NTSB rarely release CVR or communications audio, especially where the sound of the doomed screaming or impact are involved, only transcripts. I see no value, in fact I only see perverse curiosity, in listening to the family of the pilot screaming in the background as he calls out his final epitaph. Folks who get excited about such things have ample other places to go on the internet, Brazilian news cameras following suicide jumpers all the way down to the pavement, horrible accident scenes on Russian dash cams, ISIS recruitment videos, etc., and we not feed such perverted appetites here.

Offline patbarry

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Re: VFR into IFR.......5 souls 3 kids 1 family
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2015, 12:49:11 PM »
My info is second hand, but I'm told that the Mayday call had screams in the background of the daughter(s).

I read here about the controller and his offer of a clearance - it is the responsibility of the pilot to accept or decline a clearance. If the pilot was not instrument rated he should have declined and requested a vector to clear weather and maintained VFR.

This is a shocking event.

Offline tonyairplane

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Re: VFR into IFR.......5 souls 3 kids 1 family
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2015, 03:04:14 PM »
It seemed to me that when the guy first called mayday, but the controller didn't hear it.

Offline GeoffSM1

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Re: VFR into IFR.......5 souls 3 kids 1 family
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2015, 03:09:47 PM »
Requests  to tkibob.

Please copy the pm you sent to me earlier today under the heading 'Hold your hurting head in both hands' into this thread.

Referring to the Barron @ HWD:
[/quote
« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 03:16:37 PM by GeoffSM1 »

Offline Robert Larson

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Re: VFR into IFR.......5 souls 3 kids 1 family
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2015, 02:25:32 PM »
Alternate perspective on tkibob: He appears to be on the autism spectrum. I don't think he's deliberately trolling. He just thinks differently. I for one will attempt to embrace neurodiversity and put up with his nonsense as there do seem to be nuggets of interesting stuff in his over-long posts. I think he means well, he just has an odd way of communicating.

fwiw, while I AM a pilot I am NOT a psychologist. Just live with some autistic folks so am somewhat qualified in my "diagnosis". His posts seem very familiar to me.

Offline Fill

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Re: VFR into IFR.......5 souls 3 kids 1 family
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2016, 08:01:46 PM »
if it helps anyone with the registry delay question, i passed my checkride 11/11/2015 and it was posted just before christmas, so it's about 6 weeks backlog. 

Offline frcabot

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Re: VFR into IFR.......5 souls 3 kids 1 family
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2016, 03:21:13 PM »
I can't get behind all the super long post and didn't even bother reading most of it (I find the bolding, underlining, italics, etc. really distracting and I will skip past anything formatted like that) but this does seem to be a pretty clear loss of control scenario -- either vfr into ifr or icing-induced spin. Condolences to the surviving family.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 07:27:42 PM by frcabot »

Offline frcabot

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Re: VFR into IFR.......5 souls 3 kids 1 family
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2016, 07:23:51 PM »
FYI he was not instrument rated and he had basically no IFR experience (some of you were speculating that he was IFR rated but the website just hadn't been updated). The plane broke-up in flight, almost certainly due to exceeding G-force limitations in a spin/LOC. http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20151220X04641&key=1

Offline martyj19

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Re: VFR into IFR.......5 souls 3 kids 1 family
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2016, 02:58:56 PM »
some of you were speculating that he was IFR rated but the website just hadn't been updated)

To clarify, having been the poster who originally suggested this, I wanted to be as charitable as possible to the pilot's qualifications and thus suggested that very slight possibility might exist.

Now that we have the NTSB preliminary, and the information from the pilot's logbook, a lot of the speculation surrounding the flight can be put to rest.

Interestingly, the NTSB doesn't touch on whether oxygen was available even though at these altitudes it is very pertinent, and it could well be that hypoxia contributed to the LOC.

While I have you here, if you are a student pilot, it is a good idea to get in the habit of scanning in and storing your logbook pages as you finish them.  That way if your logbook gets lost or destroyed, it can be reconstructed.

Offline greg99

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Re: VFR into IFR.......5 souls 3 kids 1 family
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2016, 11:29:54 PM »
Horrifically, one of the local TV stations elected to repeatedly broadcast the CVR recording, including a part where the screams of the children could be heard.

Perhaps the most offensive thing I've seen on TV news in a very long time.

Greg

Offline lajim

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Re: VFR into IFR.......5 souls 3 kids 1 family
« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2016, 10:20:35 PM »
A couple of questions on the NTSB prelim information available at the previously provided link. It is basically a brief summary of facts and does not speculate on potential causes. It says:

"During the initial climb the pilot was provided traffic advisories from SoCal and then NorCal Approach..."

This seems incorrect; the flight path from San Jose to near Bakersfield is nowhere near SoCal airspace, especially the initial-climb portion.

The Report also mentions "Oakland Approach" which I think should be NorCal, especially since the flight path was pretty far from Oakland. 

Seems a bit odd that a NTSB-issued summary would have these types of basic factual inaccuracies? Any thoughts? It does contain a disclaimer:  "This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors."

Offline martyj19

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Re: VFR into IFR.......5 souls 3 kids 1 family
« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2016, 09:54:55 AM »
The stages of an NTSB report are Preliminary, Factual, Probable Cause.  The first time you will see a potential cause mentioned is in the final Probable Cause report, which is approved by the full Board.  The NTSB does not speculate.  It can take a year or more to conclude the investigation and determine probable cause.

I wouldn't read anything into what may or may not be factual errors in the Preliminary.  The disclaimer you quoted says what it needs to say at this stage.  The one that caught my eye is the initial statement that the flight was conducted under an IFR flight plan and then it talks extensively about operating VFR.

Given that Northern California TRACON manages 20,000 square miles including Oakland, it's likely that both you and the report are referring to the same facility.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 10:36:08 AM by martyj19 »

Offline ashawley

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Re: VFR into IFR.......5 souls 3 kids 1 family
« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2016, 11:54:14 AM »
I think the sentence about IMC and IFR in the first paragraph were about what the flight experienced generally and not about the specific weather or ATC handling at Reid-Hillview Airport (KRHV) in San Jose.  The sentence about IMC and IFR is after the one that mentions KRHV, but that seems like a correlation with possibly no connection.  Here is a METAR around that period from KRHV:

KRHV 192247Z 31015KT 10SM SCT040 13/05 A3001

Quote
The cross-country flight departed Reid-Hillview Airport of Santa Clara County, San Jose, California, at 1435, with a planned destination of Henderson Executive Airport, Las Vegas, Nevada. Instrument meteorological conditions prevailed, and an instrument flight rules (IFR) flight plan had been filed.

Could the takeoff of LANCE 36402 from KRHV be added to the beginning of the file posted here?  They are in the following audio archives:

KRHV1-Ground-Dec-19-2015-2200Z
KRHV1-Ground-Dec-19-2015-2230Z
KRHV1-Tower-Dec-19-2015-2230Z