"Three Sierra Hotel.."what are you doing?"..."go back to Van Nuys"...

[uplink]

sigh...terrific..."go back to Van Nuys till you know what your doing"...."have your instructor call the tower"...

[anchovy]

So the controller instructs him to follow a freeway in a part of town or country that he was obviously not familiar with and then yells at him for not following instructions after the student told him that he was unfamiliar. When someone says that they are unfamiliar, STOP and vector. If the pilot was at the solo stage already he would know how to fly headings. The controller could've saved a lot of frustration by just simply being more specific with what he wanted.

[BWilliams]

I'm curious why the controller had the helo's instructor call the tower. 

Would a student pilot be subject to enforcement action for screwing up (suspension / revokation) like a licensed pilot would?  Or does the controller just likely want to talk to the instructor to explain the issue?

[swayze84]

I can only speak from personal experience, but I don't believe you would see enforcement action on something 'minor' like this.  On one of my first solo flights to another airport for pattern work, I goofed on my position report in my initial call and didn't realize it until I was maybe 2 miles from the field (reported I was east when I was actually west - a BIG oops at a tower w/o radar).  The tower actually called the flight school while I was in the air (the tail had the flight school's logo) and my none too happy instructor was waiting for me when I returned to the ramp.

I got a tongue lashing from the instructor, we discussed how & why I screwed up, and life went on.  No action was taken against me, shy of the occasional teasing about my ability to read a chart

Though it was 5 years ago, I apologize, again, to the KLZU controller if he happens to be floating on these boards.

[gatorbuc99]

Lol, been there done that...i train at LZU too. You live and learn, living being the key word  . the controller has expectations that you'll do what you're asked but when a guy clearly's in need of a little assistance, he's should provide it. In this case, he was kinda a douche about it

[fholbert]

So the controller instructs him to follow a freeway in a part of town or country that he was obviously not familiar with and then yells at him for not following instructions after the student told him that he was unfamiliar.

I thought the same thing. Even when I'm over an area I know I'm not paying attention to the freeways. With 4 major freeways all heading east/west and all within 25 miles of one another. The 210, 10, 60 and 91 who would know?

[inigo88]

Given the complexity of Socal airspace and the sprawl of Los Angeles the freeways are some of the best reporting points available to you... unfortunately.

Honestly I think the tower could have been worse, but he was pretty harsh. The student helicopter pilot should NOT have flown through the final approach though.

Why are these contract guys always so cranky? 

[Biff]

...reported I was east when I was actually west...

Who hasn't done that before?

[davolijj]

Wow, that controller was definitely a jerk.  People screw things up all the time, this helo pilot made one mistake....he followed the wrong freeway.  You can't blame the guy, it's not like those freeways are labeled for aircraft.

I think the controller didn't want to deal with this guy from the beginning - after the helo made his request for pattern work the controller responded, "teriffic, report crossing the..."

I think the pilot messing up the instructions just gave the controller an excuse to get rid of the guy.  Helicopters are a pain to have in the pattern, there's no disputing that.  They always want right traffic, the take forever on the runway, and they go so slow on the final that having people follow them almost always results in a go-around.  But still, these towers are there to provide a service and what the controller did was wrong.

[NAplaya16-ATC]

dick move on the controller's part!!!  you could tell that the pilot's voice was really unsure and once the controller heard him say, "student pilot" he should realize that theres a possibility of that pilot possibly gettin mixed up on things.   

i say this, not really knowin exactly how busy he was at that time, but either way, u dont say that stuff to a student pilot!

-NAplaya

[marick626]

The airport is owned by the government I presume, in other words, the guy gets payed with taxpayers money. 
The heli student pilot was a tax payer, all the tower does is provide a service to the tax payers that pay for that service. The controller sounded unprofessional from the beginning. The highways are not marked and student pilots make mistakes, that is why they don't have their license yet. He confused the highways, so what? give the guy radar vectors if you have to, you don't have to put him down over the radio adding to the already stressful situation of having made a mistake. The controller is an arse, he should be put into anger management courses before ever touching a mic again.

Sorry guys, but controllers like these piss me off.

[penguin44]

On one of my solos (3rd I think and 2nd far away from home airport) I told the tower I was turning a left base for runway 33 when I was in fact turning RIGHT for 15! Yeah, it was a bad day for me anyway as it was 35c in the cabin and as I was appoaching the main comm died and I had to use the bkup. I was sooooo sorry on the radio. The tower was "You are on Right for 15," "Wow, sorry tower, I guess I was turned around in my head" His reply still sticks with me, "No problem, that's what we're here for! Cleared to land 15, and it's just between us."

As I was slowing to turn off runway, "ABCD, over to ground ---.- and yeah, just between us and everyone else on the freq." WITH A HUGE LAUGH. That made me smile and relax.

[kea001]

This happened just prior to Gov. Schwarzenneger's emergency landing.

I'd put it down to testosterone overload by osmosis.

[mbundy]

Sounds about typical for the tower at KWHP.   KVNY tower routinely vectors people when they realize (or are told) that the pilot isn't familiar with the local landmarks.  They certainly don't send them home. You can always tell the KWHP controllers from the KVNY controllers without even looking at the frequency.  Nice, pleasant, professional, helpful = KVNY.  Grump, terse, arrogant = KWHP.

The odd things is:

Aircraft operations:
KVNY: avg 1381/day
KWHP: avg 318/day

So why the difference?  Probably because the tower at KVNY maintains the highest standards of professionalism and service--remember him from One-Six Right?  
  

[inigo88]

Did I mention that the WHP ATCT is a CONTRACT TOWER? I believe it's owned and administered by this company.

I'm sorry if there are any contract controllers here that take offense to this... I'm sure that like anything else there are exceptions to the trend with some awesome contract controllers and some terrible FAA controllers. I have visited a local contract tower and it was pretty hit or miss, with some awesome controllers and some less stellar controllers (and one total lunatic ). Pretty much everyone there had been hired straight from ATC in the military, with a few retired FAA guys. One particular gentleman I spoke to (the lunatic, who played a game of 20 questions with me while shining the lost comm light gun in my face lol) had all his prior experience in the US Navy in the TRACON environment of a Carrier Air Traffic Control Center (CATCC) on an aircraft carrier underway at sea.

While these folks are certainly competent and have significant on the job experience, I could see the transition to civilian towers being difficult... and if said controller has spent their previous professional career talking to highly trained professional Naval Aviators all day in a very disciplined and structured flying environment, one could begin to see why they may lack empathy for some Joe Blow weekend warrior GA pilot who doesn't quite have it together in the cockpit.

Lower pay and/or worse working conditions from their FAA counterparts may also play a contributing factor depending on the company they work for - as has been previously discussed all over the net about the decline in the level of service from FSS briefers since they were contracted out to Lockheed. Like many testimonials I've read from other pilots, I've switched to mostly self-briefing with DUAT since being yelled at a couple of times for no reason by briefers who were clearly not having a good day. At the very least I say "Please prompt me for the required information as you need it."

I'm trying my best not to over-generalize that all contract towers are inferior simply based on my own first impressions of one facility, but I think it is something worth considering as a contributing factor to this particular incident.

Regards,

Inigo

[btnhtillidie]

I see both sides of the Story, SOCAL is not a joke, epically where he was you have BUR, VNY, & WHP all so close to each other. Around here freeways are how you navigate. "Follow the 5 northbound" follow it to the 5/170 split make a 360 back up the 5 to the 134 split" There's no way you would know which freeway is which.

could the Controller have helped out a little more yea maybe. BUR hands off so many people to WHP following the 5 freeway North. Maybe he was at his wits end with stupid pilots?     

[R44TRENT]

Given the complexity of Socal airspace and the sprawl of Los Angeles the freeways are some of the best reporting points available to you... unfortunately.

Honestly I think the tower could have been worse, but he was pretty harsh. The student helicopter pilot should NOT have flown through the f

[retiredatc]

I am a retired air traffic controller.  There are jerks in ATC, but there are far more people who are concerned about the welfare of the users.  Also, some controllers respond in anger when a situation has scared them.  However, controllers should also maintain a high degree of professionalism so as not to further exacerbate a situation especially where student pilots are concerned. 

Using landmarks to help orient a pilot is a wonderful tool as long as the controller monitors the situation.  This pilot had advised the controller that he was a student which tells me he is not comfortable with his situation and needs extra handling.  I have had discussions with controllers when they tell someone to turn a three mile final and the pilot turns at two or four miles.  They would get mad and my response was there are no markers on the ground to indicate the mileage.  Either monitor the situation or call the turn for them.

I have told student pilots to have their instructors call the tower on occasion so that they can be apprised of the situation and can address it in subsequent lessons (a student might be too embarrassed to tell a instructor they had problems). 

By the same token, if a pilot feels that a controller is unresponsive or not doing his/her job, they need to call the tower and speak with the chief or supervisor and bring the matter to their attention.  I can assure you tapes will be pulled and the situation will be addressed.

It is unfortunate that this pilot was treated so rudely when it is obvious to everyone who hears the tape that this student was having problems.  The controller should have been nicer and this would have been a positive learning situation for the student.  Controllers are compensated handsomely.  We are paid for when "things go wrong, not right."  Someone should have reported this controller.