Author Topic: USAF1 at KSFO 1/31 0007Z start  (Read 14251 times)

Offline kittyranma

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
USAF1 at KSFO 1/31 0007Z start
« on: January 30, 2008, 11:15:32 PM »
[Edit: 0731Z?!?  I think LiveATC doesn't record in the future -- yet!] :)

Well, The Prez decided to visit KSFO finally after all these years.  As we all know, Clinton (Mr, former Prez, that is) used to use Moffet Field in Mountain View, south of KSFO.

So I found the approach and landing:

KSFO Approach Class-B -- 1/31 0000Z, starts at 7:31 to 16:00 TWR handoff.
   Don't stop after the 10:50 handoff.  You'll hear the next step right after that.
KSFO Tower -- 1/31 0000Z starts at :16:23.
   Just before that, you'll hear a CG helicopter get into position to be alongside AF1 and an airfield mobile with some camera crews probably.

You know, I only heard the "heavy" designation on Norcal approach.

I didn't hear anything on KSFO Ground after that.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2008, 04:11:47 AM by kittyranma »



Offline ReverseThrust

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • C680 Sovereign!
Re: AF1 at KSFO 1/31 0731Z start
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2008, 01:58:02 AM »
The departure is between 0330 and 0400 GMT 1/31/08.  Starts KSFO GND at 8:10 into the recording with an "Air Force One starting engines" call
Air Force One is heard on SFO Tower between 13 and 20 minutes in, a few runway crossing clearances, the takeoff clearance, and the hand off to NORCAL departure.
The heavy designation is also found on Ground before departure.

The same CG helicopter and I assume the same vehicles- callsign Mobile 243- can be heard on Tower

Offline rpd

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 145
Re: USAF1 at KSFO 1/31 0007Z start
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2008, 12:11:51 PM »
AF1 is not refered to as heavy.

Offline ReverseThrust

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • C680 Sovereign!
Re: USAF1 at KSFO 1/31 0007Z start
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2008, 11:57:47 AM »
clearly with some controllers it is--it is heard this way on several of the recordings listed above.  If that is not the standard practice, can you elaborate on why? So far as I understand it, the heavy callsign is to emphasize the increased wake turbulence and increased separation requirements, which would apply to a 747 no matter whether it is airline or not.  Is it a military thing?  I know 'heavy' is not used worldwide.  Source please?

Offline rpd

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 145
Re: USAF1 at KSFO 1/31 0007Z start
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2008, 02:35:44 PM »
Clearly the controllers who use heavy with AF1 are incorrect.  I work at a facility that works AF1 a lot, in fact in and out of its home base.  We do not use the term heavy with AF1 of AF2 regardless of type aircraft.  You want a source?  How about FAAH 7110.65R  2-4-14 para 5.  I will paste it.

2-4-14. WORDS AND PHRASES

a. Use the words or phrases in radiotelephone and interphone communication as contained in the P/CG or, within areas where Controller Pilot Data Link Communications (CPDLC) is in use, the phraseology contained in the applicable CPDLC message set.

b. The word "heavy" shall be used as part of the identification of heavy jet aircraft as follows:

TERMINAL. In all communications with or about heavy jet aircraft.

EN ROUTE. The use of the word heavy may be omitted except as follows:

1. In communications with a terminal facility about heavy jet operations.

2. In communications with or about heavy jet aircraft with regard to an airport where the en route center is providing approach control service.

3. In communications with or about heavy jet aircraft when the separation from a following aircraft may become less than 5 miles by approved procedure.

4. When issuing traffic advisories.

EXAMPLE-
"United Fifty-Eight Heavy."

NOTE-
Most airlines will use the word "heavy" following the company prefix and flight number when establishing communications or when changing frequencies within a terminal facility's area.

5. When in radio communications with "Air Force One" or "Air Force Two," do not add the heavy designator to the call sign. State only the call sign "Air Force One/Two" regardless of the type aircraft.


Offline kittyranma

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: USAF1 at KSFO 1/31 0007Z start
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2008, 06:13:46 PM »
5. When in radio communications with "Air Force One" or "Air Force Two," do not add the heavy designator to the call sign. State only the call sign "Air Force One/Two" regardless of the type aircraft.

Stupid question: So if you're behind an aircraft callsigned AF1, you're automatically supposed to know that a VC-25 is being flown and you need appropriate separation for that sized aircraft?

Yeah yeah yeah, ATP rated PIC's are smarter than that -- but what about the ASEL VFR guys who want to get in close to see The Prez and don't know any better?

Offline ReverseThrust

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • C680 Sovereign!
Re: USAF1 at KSFO 1/31 0007Z start
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2008, 08:37:14 PM »
Thanks for the info rpd, I appreciate it. 

Offline tyketto

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 983
Re: USAF1 at KSFO 1/31 0007Z start
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2008, 10:53:11 PM »
5. When in radio communications with "Air Force One" or "Air Force Two," do not add the heavy designator to the call sign. State only the call sign "Air Force One/Two" regardless of the type aircraft.

Stupid question: So if you're behind an aircraft callsigned AF1, you're automatically supposed to know that a VC-25 is being flown and you need appropriate separation for that sized aircraft?

Yeah yeah yeah, ATP rated PIC's are smarter than that -- but what about the ASEL VFR guys who want to get in close to see The Prez and don't know any better?


Those ASEL VFR guys won't get a chance. The FAA will put up a TFR like they did for us in Vegas this past week, and kills any students flying time. TFR for Vegas was good for 18 hours before he landed, through the time he was here, to 18 hours after he left. Commercial flights were exempted.  :x

BL.

Offline rpd

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 145
Re: USAF1 at KSFO 1/31 0007Z start
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2008, 11:21:55 PM »
No problem Thruster. 

The deletion of the term heavy in the call sign does not change wake turbulence seperation minima.  I don't know what planet kittyranma is from, but like tyketto said no VFR guy is getting near AF1.  There is always a TFR and the airspace is pretty much sterilized when the aircraft is landing/departing.  Trust me, even a commercial aircraft will NOT be close in trail of AF1.

Offline ReverseThrust

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • C680 Sovereign!
Re: USAF1 at KSFO 1/31 0007Z start
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2008, 05:47:47 PM »
Very true.  I remember hearing a Challenger (?CT) on the recording above that seemed irritated and ready to go--judging only by the controller's responses that he could taxi to the runway, but couldn't leave.  I imagined that this was because AF1 was taxiing out for departure.