airtraffic

Author Topic: Random short clips  (Read 8079 times)

Offline Carro

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Re: Random short clips - Small argument between BA pilot and JFK approach
« Reply #50 on: June 30, 2019, 03:32:55 PM »
This is older. The controller wanted them to keep their speed up and the pilot said they couldn't do that. She then cancelled their approach clearance and the pilot told her she should not do that for traffic behind them. I was just curious who was right in this? They were vectored around in a circle and was cleared the approach again about five minutes later, free speed this time.


Offline Carro

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Re: Random short clips - Grumpy, cranky and terrible Texan accent
« Reply #51 on: June 30, 2019, 03:42:22 PM »
This is three short clips of controllers having a little fun with their coworkers.

Offline wiedehopf

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Re: Random short clips
« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2019, 03:16:58 AM »
Miscommunication.

If the pilot had offered 180 knots to 6 or even 7 DME the controller would have had no problem.

The controller could have also offered that because i think the BA pilot was a little too huffy to even understand the question how long he would be able to maintain 180.

ZALPO is at 6.8 DME which is 5.4 nmi from the threshold.
(https://de.flightaware.com/resources/airport/KJFK/IAP/ILS+OR+LOC+RWY+22L/pdf)

In the approach chart you can also see another problem: DME is 1.4 nmi more than distance to the threshold.

Now the controllers mean 180 to 5 nmi from the threshold.
Saying "180 knots to 5 miles" would be unambiguous.

180 to 5 DME is a little ambiguous though.

Not sure if that ambiguity is ever a problem, but i believe it might well be sometimes.


Anyway the pilot was busy explaining why he couldn't fulfill that ("ridiculous" in his eyes) request.
The controller only wanted to know how long he could maintain 180.

Which he then replied that he was slowing to 160.

When the approach clearance was given the BA plane was "7 from ZALPO" which means on a 12 mile final.
Slowing to 160 so far out was as i said probably a misunderstanding.

They were both within their rights to do what they did though.
The pilot can slow down if he deems it necessary and the controller can resequence them to keep up efficiency.

One might argue just slowing down the plane behind BA might have been more efficient and that the controller acted out of spite.
But being uncooperative with ATC might get you going in circles, that's just how it is.

Offline VASAviation

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Re: Random short clips
« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2019, 05:47:20 AM »
Totally agree with you, Wiede.

Thanks for sharing, Carro! Do you know what date this was? I can try find the ADSB data of the airplanes and display them on my radar simulator to see how close the traffic behind was or what was the sequence that the lady had built up.

Anyway, I think BAW was wrong here - kind of - and a bit obstinate.

Offline Carro

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Re: Random short clips
« Reply #54 on: July 01, 2019, 02:13:04 PM »
Wiedehopf, thank you for your detailed answer. So from your answer I take it that it is not true, the way the BA pilot clamied, that it is not an FAA approved reason to cancel their approach clearance for traffic that they are ahead of?

Do you know what date this was? I can try find the ADSB data of the airplanes and display them on my radar simulator to see how close the traffic behind was or what was the sequence that the lady had built up.

This was in April, do you still have data that far back?
It was this one
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW115/history/20190419/1330Z/EGLL/KJFK

Offline VASAviation

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Re: Random short clips
« Reply #55 on: July 01, 2019, 03:27:20 PM »
Thanks Carro! And affirm, I can download track data from one year back. Will go for the rest of traffic around BAW and display them see what the situation looked like for the lady.

Best regards

Offline VASAviation

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Re: Random short clips
« Reply #56 on: July 01, 2019, 04:27:25 PM »
Here's the video. Better quality video will be available soon on VASAviation with some more info and traffic. For now it's only the radar showing arrivals at the time.

Here you can see altitude and Ground Speed. The lady had the sequence well built up already and didn't want it to be messed. Two interesting things I find is how she later put BAW between two again and a Jetblue passing over 22L to establish on 22R. That was a nice move.


Offline wiedehopf

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Re: Random short clips
« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2019, 02:45:42 AM »
Wiedehopf, thank you for your detailed answer. So from your answer I take it that it is not true, the way the BA pilot clamied, that it is not an FAA approved reason to cancel their approach clearance for traffic that they are ahead of?

I'm not sure if the BA pilot even said FAA. Didn't quite catch by whom the procedure wasn't approved.

Technically the pilot might be right, he still had to do a circle ;)

And complaining like he did on frequency is a no-no.
After landing he can easily get a phone number for the NY Tracon and i'm sure he can discuss his complaint.
Such discussion clogs up the frequency and if the controller isn't as collected as this one it can create a dangerous situation.

I've heard the tower send around small planes because a Super was too close behind them.
That's not an approved procedure either probably but it makes much more sense to reduce delays for everyone because sending a Super around you have to apply wake separation and it takes up much more time that the final approach is occupied.

That really creates some fuel burn, going around and being sequenced for a second approach.
This little circle is not a problem.

But he probably is right and it may not be an approved procedure.
His behaviour on the radio is much less approved though.

Offline kitsaber691

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Re: Random short clips
« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2019, 06:14:51 PM »
Just tried to post an audio clip of one minute and change, but was unable. Has this thread gotten too long for the servers to handle?

EDIT 7/11/19: problem resolved - clip in question is now in a separate thread.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 10:41:48 PM by kitsaber691 »