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Air Traffic Monitoring => Aviation Audio Clips => Topic started by: Eric M on August 31, 2010, 11:13:58 AM

Title: Qantas 747 engine explodes (or some other small problem)
Post by: Eric M on August 31, 2010, 11:13:58 AM
KIRO-TV in Seattle is just reporting this news out of SFO, a Qantas 747 had an exploded engine and returned. No other details; here are images of the plane:

http://www.kirotv.com/slideshow/news/24824100/detail.html

Here's the audio, starting with Tower before takeoff, and going all the way through to Ground after landing. 17 minutes. Very interesting.
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes
Post by: Eric M on August 31, 2010, 11:16:47 AM
Here's more of the story, and another good picture.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/08/31/BA021F67JO.DTL
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes
Post by: iskyfly on August 31, 2010, 11:45:51 AM
Not an explosion.
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes
Post by: DingerX on August 31, 2010, 12:30:55 PM
http://de.flightaware.com/live/flight/QFA74/history/20100831/0610Z/KSFO/KSFO/tracklog

audio's on ZOA
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/ksfo/ZOA-SFO-Aug-31-2010-0630Z.mp3
ZOA Cntr checkin (TO clearance is on KSFO twr at the hour, Norcal departure at 1.20): +3.44
+18:20 Engine FAIL
21:30 Require RV

and you can pick it up from there.
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes
Post by: Eric M on August 31, 2010, 01:35:55 PM
I'm working on editing the audio now.
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes
Post by: alltheway on August 31, 2010, 01:42:07 PM
OMG just in front of the company logo!


just kidding, but doesn't seem too much damage (thankfully)
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes
Post by: DingerX on August 31, 2010, 02:57:12 PM
Eric M: Awesome! Sorry for being lazy on this one.

By the way, on SFO tower at least, rescue services come one at 742Z (so before the handover), if not before.


hey, if there's a partial containment failure, I'm cool with calling it an explosion. If even one bit o' titanium flies out at an unanticipated angle, that counts.
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes
Post by: iskyfly on August 31, 2010, 03:01:29 PM


hey, if there's a partial containment failure, I'm cool with calling it an explosion. If even one bit o' titanium flies out at an unanticipated angle, that counts.
Would you call the Challenger accident an explosion?
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes
Post by: DingerX on August 31, 2010, 03:46:21 PM
Indeed I would! After all, one of the SRBs suffered a partial containment failure. The SRB was mostly intact when it was recovered, but you'd be justfied to say that it exploded.


(Oh yeah, so did that big-ass Liquid Fuel Tank, and the orbiter, but that was later).
Yeah, explosion is when parts blow outwards. For rockets and jet turbines, it's a problem. When bits of titanium that are spinning at 20k RPM bust out of their containing nacelle, bad things can happen. Look at the hole: it's pointing away, but when it went, there was a 1 in 4 chance that it would be going somewhere sporting.
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes
Post by: Eric M on August 31, 2010, 03:56:22 PM
After spending all morning with the associated feed archives, I've pieced together an entire audio transcript - but it's 17 minutes and 8 MB in size, and I can't get it to upload for the life of me. Will keep trying........

Edited to add: All done. The audio is in the first post. After the four hours I spent on this, I hope at least one of you will listen.  :lol:
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes
Post by: DingerX on August 31, 2010, 04:06:22 PM
Rock on Eric, (re-)listening, on the principle of the thing.
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes (or some other small problem)
Post by: Eric M on August 31, 2010, 04:18:35 PM
Thanks! I spent a good 40 minutes alone just figuring out that the sample rate was different in the audio between the various feeds. If you hear anything that sounds like Alvin & The Chipmunks, let me know. I think everything is good now.

Also, in light of the controversy over what constitutes an explosion, I have renamed the thread appropriately.

Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes (or some other small problem)
Post by: flyflyfly on August 31, 2010, 05:07:33 PM
Thanks for the audio work!
Quite remarkable recording, almost 18 minutes of related audio...

Luckily the blade (or whatever else broke) exited at the engine's side facing away from the plane. Any other direction could have caused more trouble - damaged the wing or #3 engine to the left. "Just" loosing one engine didn't really thrill the Aussie pilot too much. No worries!  :-D
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes
Post by: joeyb747 on August 31, 2010, 06:03:27 PM
Not an explosion.

Agreed. This is what we call an "Uncontained Failure". My guess would be in the turbine section, judging how far aft on the cowling the breach is.

There was no fire. The "fire" seen by passengers is caused by engine surge.

Qantas B747-400s are powered by Rolls-Royce RB211 high-bypass turbofan engines. See the pic below. The turbine section is directly behind the burner section, about the area of the breach. Again...just a GUESS!  :wink:

By the way...GREAT CATCH ERIC M!!
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes
Post by: alltheway on August 31, 2010, 06:20:40 PM
Not an explosion.

Agreed. This is what we call an "Uncontained Failure". My guess would be in the turbine section

Not to be rude, but a minor correction here  :evil: I think this area is called compressor area, the entire engine is a turbine and sections of it are compressor stages  :?
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes
Post by: joeyb747 on August 31, 2010, 06:23:33 PM
hey, if there's a partial containment failure, I'm cool with calling it an explosion. If even one bit o' titanium flies out at an unanticipated angle, that counts.

Please don't take this the wrong way...but...

Partial containment...not possible...it's contained...or it's uncontained! Kind of like a light switch...it's on or it's off...

If ANY part punctures the cowling, it is then an uncontained failure.

Contained:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j973645y5AA

Uncontained (about 4:30 in...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY68IZ3s4WI

United 232 is probably the best known example of an uncontained engine failure.
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes
Post by: joeyb747 on August 31, 2010, 06:37:39 PM
Not an explosion.

Agreed. This is what we call an "Uncontained Failure". My guess would be in the turbine section

Not to be rude, but a minor correction here  :evil: I think this area is called compressor area, the entire engine is a turbine and sections of it are compressor stages  :?

Not to be rude back...but a minor correction for you... :evil:

Turbine engines run on the suck-squeeze-burn-blow idea...

A turbine engine is divided up into sections. Intake, Compressor, Combustion, Turbine, and Exhaust. The turbine section has blades that rotate. See the pic below...if you compare the diagram to the photos of the damaged engine, it appears to be in the Turbine section...in fact, one pic shows what appear to be the turbine blades pretty clearly...see the second pic here:

http://www.kirotv.com/slideshow/news/24824100/detail.html

And the compressor section you pointed out is further forward. The compressor section is directly behind the main fan disc.
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes
Post by: Eric M on August 31, 2010, 06:44:29 PM
By the way...GREAT CATCH ERIC M!!

Thanks, but it was nothing - KIRO-TV (Seattle) reported it on Twitter this morning, which is where I saw it. I just went and dug through the archives after that, and cobbled together the recording.
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes
Post by: joeyb747 on August 31, 2010, 06:51:31 PM
By the way...GREAT CATCH ERIC M!!

Thanks, but it was nothing - KIRO-TV (Seattle) reported it on Twitter this morning, which is where I saw it. I just went and dug through the archives after that, and cobbled together the recording.

Well very nice job! Thanks for taking the time to put it all together!
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes (or some other small problem)
Post by: Squawk 7700 on August 31, 2010, 08:38:48 PM
Eric - Great job on the extended clip! I know from experience that it takes time to compile and edit all this material down.  :-)

Attached is a clip of Qantas 74 checking in with NORCAL on 135.1 from a different receiver location.

Again great job!

Ken

Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes
Post by: iskyfly on August 31, 2010, 08:46:26 PM
Indeed I would!
It didn't.

There was no shock wave, no detonation. It broke apart due to aerodynamic forces well beyond what it was designed to handle.
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes
Post by: joeyb747 on August 31, 2010, 08:54:30 PM
Indeed I would!
It didn't.

There was no shock wave, no detonation. It broke apart due to aerodynamic forces well beyond what it was designed to handle.


In fact, the cause of death listed on some of the autopsy reports was drowning...witch means they were "alive" when they hit the water...also, some of the emergency oxygen packs had been activated!
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes
Post by: iskyfly on August 31, 2010, 09:00:06 PM

In fact, the cause of death listed on some of the autopsy reports was drowning...witch means they were "alive" when they hit the water...also, some of the emergency oxygen packs had been activated!
Correct. The crew cabin impacted the water mostly intact.
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes (or some other small problem)
Post by: joeyb747 on September 01, 2010, 09:03:29 AM
"Qantas 747 makes emergency landing after 'uncontained engine failure'"

"engine failure in midair punched a hole in the external casing, an incident that one expert called 'extremely rare.' "

Such an incident is referred to as an "uncontained engine failure." "


From:

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/post/2010/08/qantas-emergency-landing/110744/1

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2010/08/31/BA021F67JO.DTL&o=2

Below is a couple pics of the bird involved, Boeing 747-438 VH-OJP (cn 25545/916).
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes (or some other small problem)
Post by: joeyb747 on September 01, 2010, 09:58:42 AM
Just a little technical info here:

The power plants on Qantas Boeing 747-438 aircraft VH-OJA thru VH-OJU (21 aircraft) are the Rolls-Royce RB211-524G/T, rated at 58,000 lbf thrust each.
These engines feature FADEC, or Full Authority Digital Engine Control.

Other key features of the RB211-254 series include:

-Triple-spool high-bypass-ratio 4.3 - 4.1
-Single-stage wide-chord fan
-Seven-stage IP compressor
-Six-stage HP compressor
-Single annular combustor with 18 fuel burners (24 on the G/H-T)
-Single-stage HP turbine
-Single-stage IP turbine
-Three-stage LP turbine

http://www.rolls-royce.com/civil/products/largeaircraft/rb211_524/

Below are a couple pics of these powerhouse engines on Qantas B747-438 aircraft.
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes (or some other small problem)
Post by: Phlux on September 01, 2010, 11:55:16 AM
Phone video from inside the plane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9m9Rd9uNs-0&feature=player_embedded
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes (or some other small problem)
Post by: svoynick on September 01, 2010, 03:00:07 PM
Eric...  Very nice work compiling that.  It was a good listen, and yes I listened to it all the way through!

Please don't take this as a criticism, but just a double check for curiosity...  I load the clip with a total track time of 17:39, but within that, I hear two repeated sections:

Section from 2:00-2:24 is repeated from 2:25 to 2:49  (initial call that they were returning)
Section from 11:48-12:03 is repeated from 12:04-12:19 (right to 010 and request for 28R)

Do you hear that, too, or did I just get a corrupted download somehow?

Also my favorite moment:  whoever was working the radio in the cockpit was very cool and clear and professional, but when ATC said that the copmany dispatch wanted to know what the failure was, he just, almost let go for a moment....  "Uh look uh... "...and tell dispatch that we're not in a position to pass that sort of information to them at this stage."

Is my translation from remarkably polite Aussie to English correct?  Did I catch the undertone here:   "Tell dispatch to PISS OFF 'til we're done flying the airplane!"
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes (or some other small problem)
Post by: flyflyfly on September 01, 2010, 04:46:25 PM
Also my favorite moment:  whoever was working the radio in the cockpit was very cool and clear and professional, but when ATC said that the copmany dispatch wanted to know what the failure was, he just, almost let go for a moment....  "Uh look uh... "...and tell dispatch that we're not in a position to pass that sort of information to them at this stage."

Is my translation from remarkably polite Aussie to English correct?  Did I catch the undertone here:   "Tell dispatch to PISS OFF 'til we're done flying the airplane!"

That was exactly what I thought. It was the only moment the pilot clearly hesitated.
Why would dispatch want to know more about the failure at this time anyway? Well, probably to determine the impact on their schedule - depending on whether they could return the plane to service quickly, or whether it needs to be grounded longer for repairs. That's exactly the kind of issues in which pilots, still really busy with returning a broken plane to the ground, are absolutely not interested in...
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes (or some other small problem)
Post by: Eric M on September 01, 2010, 07:11:41 PM
Svoynick, no offense taken at all. It's possible I accidentally doubled a couple of snippets, working across multiple files. I intentionally left in a few of the fuel dump warnings, but any other duplications were not intended.

At any rate, I was happy to be a contributor here for a change, instead of just a consumer!
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes (or some other small problem)
Post by: MCM on September 02, 2010, 12:48:45 AM
svoynick - your translation is spot on.

Operations will always want to know everything - usually because the media will be knocking at the front door before the aircraft has even landed.

Doesn't mean the crew will give them the answers though... that comes when they've got the spare time.
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes (or some other small problem)
Post by: svoynick on September 02, 2010, 03:12:13 AM
svoynick - your translation is spot on.

Operations will always want to know everything - usually because the media will be knocking at the front door before the aircraft has even landed.

Doesn't mean the crew will give them the answers though... that comes when they've got the spare time.
Yeah - it's been touched on in other threads, like with an engine out after takeoff...
(like here: http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/ei-120-engine-failure-at-kmco/) 
I have great respect listening to pilots who, once they declare the emergency, and ATC is asking for information and (helpfully) suggesting vectors, etc... just kinda say (effectively) "you know, we don't want to rush into anything, we just need to fly it for a few minutes out here, get our aircraft and cockpit in order, and well let you know what we need next..."  It's cool to hear situations handled like that.

Fly the plane.  Fly the plane.  Fly the plane.

And Eric - just to reiterate, it's a great clip and nice work.  I even liked that you left in the multiple fuel dump calls, because it taught me that the controller stays on top of that and issues periodic "Attention all aircraft" calls to warn other traffic that it's going on.  Imagine flying through that hydrocarbon rain!

 - Stan
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes (or some other small problem)
Post by: Katanada on September 05, 2010, 10:26:22 AM
After taking a look at the pictures, my preliminary guess is that the engine suffered what is referred to as "rotor burst". From the pictures it looks to be one of the forward stages of the LP turbine (N1).

Rotor burst rarely happens and its pretty much always uncontainable (unfortunately).
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes (or some other small problem)
Post by: joeyb747 on September 06, 2010, 02:44:50 PM
After taking a look at the pictures, my preliminary guess is that the engine suffered what is referred to as "rotor burst". From the pictures it looks to be one of the forward stages of the LP turbine (N1).

Rotor burst rarely happens and its pretty much always uncontainable (unfortunately).

My thoughts exactly. the pics are not the greatest...kind of grainy, but that was my guess...
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes (or some other small problem)
Post by: A_J_D_C on September 10, 2010, 02:46:21 PM
 :-o  :-o at time 14:10 on the clip the aircrafts on a five mile final when the twr notices that they haven't got there landing lights on  :-P...Considering the circumstances they done a great job, and the clip is awsome, covers the lot, good work
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes (or some other small problem)
Post by: MCM on September 11, 2010, 11:12:37 AM
And did you notice the reply to that? Not one of surprise, but one of understanding.

What was the visibility and weather like at the time?
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes (or some other small problem)
Post by: joeyb747 on October 25, 2010, 07:57:35 PM
"An visual engine inspection following disassembly of the engine showed that all turbine blades had separated from the IP (intermediate pressure) turbine disk. The blades of the three LP (low pressure) turbine stages were fractured through the airfoil section of had separated from the disk. The LP stage nozzle guide vanes were destroyed, the remaining LP nozzles were substantially damaged. The LP turbine bearing and adjacent phonic wheel and speed probe were destroyed. The IP shaft was severed towards the aft end."

From the updated Avherald article:

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4305467b/0003&opt=0

A great close-up photo of the damaged Stage 1 Low Pressure Turbine and the Intermediate Pressure Turbine is included in the report.
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes (or some other small problem)
Post by: joeyb747 on November 05, 2010, 08:05:48 PM
...not another one... :|

"A Qantas Boeing 747-400, registration VH-OJD performing flight QF-6 from Singapore (Singapore) to Sydney,NS (Australia) with 412 passengers and 19 crew, was in the intial climb out of Singapore when the crew decided to return to Singapore due to a problem with the #1 engine (RB211, outboard left). The airplane dumped fuel and landed safely about 60 minutes after departure.

Passengers reported hearing a "small" bang from the engine and seeing streaks of flame from the engine exhaust."


From:

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=433137f6&opt=0

To early to tell yet, and no pics accompany the article, but it may be related to the original topic here and the A380 thread in the other forum...there are ADs out on both the Rolls Royce Trent 900 Series (A380) and RB211 (B744) powerplants...

I linked to the ADs in the A380 thread if anyone would like to read them. Here is a shortcut to the A380 thread:

http://www.liveatc.net/forums/listener-forum/qantas-grounds-all-a380's-after-explosion/
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes (or some other small problem)
Post by: SASD209 on November 06, 2010, 03:38:52 AM
How did I miss this one when it happened?
Eric M, thanks much for the audio, really great job putting it all together!!   :-)
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes (or some other small problem)
Post by: Eric M on November 07, 2010, 12:27:54 AM
How did I miss this one when it happened?
Eric M, thanks much for the audio, really great job putting it all together!!   :-)

Happy to do it, and I'm glad you found it as interesting as I did.
Title: Re: Qantas 747 engine explodes (or some other small problem)
Post by: briantambrose@gmail.com on November 30, 2010, 12:45:26 AM
thanks for posting this. very good lessons to be learned.