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Air Traffic Monitoring => Aviation Audio Clips => Topic started by: dave on August 12, 2008, 11:33:11 AM

Title: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: dave on August 12, 2008, 11:33:11 AM
MyFoxBoston Coverage (http://www.myfoxboston.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=7189056&version=9&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1)

Three fatalities, according to the FAA.  This was an Angel Flight from somewhere on Long Island (NY) to Boston Logan Airport.

Update: Boston.com (http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2008/08/small_plane_cra.html)

No direct reception of any comms from the plane but this clip has Boston Approach Plymouth sector inquiring about ELT reception and then later makes calls to N6600L (which turned out not to be the crash plane) on both 120.6 and 121.5.

According to the latest data, this is the plane that crashed:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NGF15D


Note: No silence removed.

Title: Re: Breaking news: Plane down in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: KSYR-pjr on August 12, 2008, 01:11:19 PM
A V-tail Bonanza and an Angel Flight to boot.  Damn.   
Title: Re: Breaking news: Plane down in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: marcoleon on August 12, 2008, 01:18:14 PM
Do you guys know the tail number? Glad both of you responded, I know you both fly Bo's in this area.

Prayers for the victims. I think this may be AFNE's first fatality. They had a great record.
Title: Re: Breaking news: Plane down in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: marcoleon on August 12, 2008, 01:20:08 PM
I should have read your entire post Dave, you have the tail number there.  Sorry!
Title: Re: Breaking news: Plane down in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: dave on August 12, 2008, 01:24:55 PM
Here is the flight path from FlightAware.

Title: Re: Breaking news: Plane down in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: KSYR-pjr on August 12, 2008, 01:29:14 PM
Marco - typically when flying under the Angel Flight call sign we are instructed to use NGF followed by the last three characters of our tail-id, then put the entire full tail ID into the comment section of the IFR flight plan.  In this accident airplane's case the last 3 characters of this aircraft's tail ID would be 15D.   I see that Dave has included a call to an aircraft with a tail ID of N6600L, but under normal circumstances that tail ID would translate to an Angel Flight tail ID of NGF00L.  Hmmm.... maybe that is why the aircraft used a different ID for AF?

In the five years I have been flying for Angel Flight Northeast I am also not aware of any accidents leading to fatalities.    In fact, across the US Angel Flight typically has an incredibly safe record for the very large quantity of somewhat time sensitive mission-oriented flying their pilots perform.

Below is the accident aircraft's track.   Very notable is that large S-shaped deviation at the end of the flight.  

(http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/6294/scrn0136ff3.jpg)
Title: Re: Breaking news: Plane down in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: dave on August 12, 2008, 01:29:51 PM
I have more audio coverage coming.
Title: Re: Breaking news: Plane down in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: KSYR-pjr on August 12, 2008, 01:34:49 PM
Given the rules for creating Angel Flight tail IDs, I am wondering if N4615D is the tail ID.  I searched Landings.com for all aircraft that end in 15D and came up with this G35 based out of Connecticut that shares quite a few of the same airports as the NGF15D aircraft.
Title: Re: Breaking news: Plane down in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: KSYR-pjr on August 12, 2008, 01:41:38 PM
I just received an email about this accident from Angel Flight.  It was a G35 V-tail that crashed and it was the first one in AFNE's history going back to the early 80s (the group's foundation).  Other than that, there was no other information.
Title: Re: Breaking news: Plane down in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: tyketto on August 12, 2008, 01:46:35 PM
I just received an email about this accident from Angel Flight.  It was a G35 V-tail that crashed and it was the first one in AFNE's history going back to the early 80s (the group's foundation).  Other than that, there was no other information.

I'm not sure if it is its first fatality.. There was the NGF crash off the SoCal coast a year or so back that killed the host for Press Your Luck..

Either way, this is very sad.. Even though three people perished, I wonder more about the person or people they were trying to help..  :cry:

BL.
Title: Re: Breaking news: Plane down in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: KSYR-pjr on August 12, 2008, 01:51:21 PM
I'm not sure if it is its first fatality.. There was the NGF crash off the SoCal coast a year or so back that killed the host for Press Your Luck..

The statistic I am quoting only has to do with Angel Flight Northeast, not Angel Flight in general.   There are many regional splinter groups under the umbrella of the Angel Flight national organization.

edit:  oh, and the crash to which you are referring was not the patient-carrying leg of the AF flight, as this one sadly was.  That aircraft was flying to the patient.

another edit:  Each Angel Flight group operates as a completely separate entity, including fund raising, and is common in name only.
Title: Plane down (NGF15D) in Easton, MA [pilot audio]
Post by: dave on August 12, 2008, 02:31:50 PM
This is the audio transcript of NGF15D in communication with Boston Approach.  The first part of the recording is the NGF15D pilot checking in with the Boston Departure sector (133.0) who sets him up for the Boston Final controller (126.5) to sequence him for Runway 4R (ILS 4R approach) at Boston Logan Airport.

It is always a sad day to lose a fellow pilot and other human lives.

Dave
Title: Re: Plane down (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: KSYR-pjr on August 12, 2008, 02:43:17 PM
Here is the public press release from Angel Flight Northeast just released to the press and its members:

-----------  start press release --------------------

Lawrence, MA- Angel Flight Northeast, is a non-profit organization based in North Andover, MA, whose volunteer pilots transport those in need of medical treatment at no cost. 

At 10:35 this morning, Angel Flight NE was notified by the FAA in Boston that it had lost radar contact with an Angel Flight traveling from Westhampton, New York to Boston.  On board the aircraft were three people – a pilot and two passengers. 

We were later notified by authorities of the crash in Easton, MA, of an aircraft matching the description of the missing plane.  Local emergency services and law enforcement authorities responded to the crash site and report multiple fatalities.

We at Angel Flight are deeply saddened by this news and our sympathies go out to the families of those involved.   

In the past 12 years, Angel Flight NEhas safely flown more than 53,000 children and adults to medical care on 30,000 flights covering more than 7.6 million miles.
Title: Re: Plane down (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: KSYR-pjr on August 12, 2008, 02:57:47 PM
Oh, man... just listened to the audio.  Sounds like spatial disorientation in IMC, as the pilot acknowledged a few of the low altitude alerts at first with no indication of any other trouble.

edit:  The last part of the clip where the controller is asking for other aircraft to listen for an ELT and one pilot asks about the accident aircraft is particularly disturbing, since at that point you can hear the anguish in the controller's voice. 
Title: Re: Plane down (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: dave on August 12, 2008, 03:27:44 PM
You never wish such a horrible event on any controller, especially when it is not his fault and there's not much he can do about it.

That controller is among my favorites at Boston TRACON.  He is always calm and composed, and does one hell of a job.
Title: Re: Plane down (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: JamieCT on August 12, 2008, 03:43:26 PM
I'm an angel flight pilot, and fly into Boston often. Those controllers are amazing, and offer spectacular service for Angel Flights. I'm shaken by the events that occured today, and have mixed feelings about having the audio posted. I think it serves a purpose, and illustrates how rapidly this kind of event can happen. I worry that out of respect for the families that are suffering a greater loss than we can imagine today, that it would be best to not make it public. Just my thoughts. My heart goes out to that controller, as well as the families.
Title: Re: Plane down (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: dylanh on August 12, 2008, 03:59:07 PM
Very sad. Not to arm-chair it.....but listening to the audio, seems like things went bad when he was given the decent from 4000 to 3000.  Judging from the photos already up elsewhere, loks like he possibly stall-spun into the ground. Right wing, and tail have nothing but fire damage...couldn't see the left wing, and the fuse looks full length,albeit VERY pancaked and burned. God bless 'em.  :cry:
Title: Re: Plane down (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: laylow on August 12, 2008, 04:01:57 PM
Terribly sad.  I can't imagine the stones it takes for a controller to remain calm and professional in that situation.

Oh man, I just got to the end of the clip, when the new controller came on.  Rough.
Title: Re: Breaking news: Plane down in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: buckdharma on August 12, 2008, 04:31:08 PM
flying their pilots perform.

Below is the accident aircraft's track.   Very notable is that large S-shaped deviation at the end of the flight.  

(http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/6294/scrn0136ff3.jpg)
Actually if you listen to the ATC recording and sync up the plane's track at http://www4.passur.com/bos.html (http://www4.passur.com/bos.html)at about 10:06 you'll find the plane SW of Boston and you'll hear ATC vectoring him in to get him in between some big jets on final on ILS 4.
Title: Re: Breaking news: Plane down in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: KSYR-pjr on August 12, 2008, 04:39:16 PM
Actually if you listen to the ATC recording and sync up the plane's track at http://www4.passur.com/bos.html (http://www4.passur.com/bos.html)at about 10:06 you'll find the plane SW of Boston and you'll hear ATC vectoring him in to get him in between some big jets on final on ILS 4.

That post came out before Dave posted the audio clip.   Upon listening to the clip I now understand the explanation for such a large deviation. 

This accident really shook me up as well and I am having trouble thinking about anything else today.  My thoughts and prayers go out to the families of the victims and to the controller involved, too. 
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: Jason on August 12, 2008, 06:25:13 PM
What a terrible shame, my heart goes out to all of those involved and their loved ones.  AFNE has had a great record up to this point.  I am hopeful that this accident does not taint their immaculate reputation for a safe operation, or the reputation of general aviation.  Just listening to the tapes...what a helpless feeling.  I can't imagine what was going through the controller's mind as the incident unfolded in real time.

It turns out that the pilot of this angel flight mission was the co-worker of my dad's real estate agent.

My thoughts and prayers go out to the family of those on board.

Best,
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: aevins on August 12, 2008, 06:31:39 PM
My heart and prayers go out as well.

Blue Skies.
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: calugar on August 12, 2008, 08:32:44 PM
I have often tried, but I am sure I will never understand why bad things happen to good people, but this I do understand, we are all better by far for the good people who give so generously to help others.

My family offers its prayers and heart felt sympathy and love to those families affected by this tragedy. We pray that though we are left bewildered, those who have passed from us today are now where they can see clearly. While the loss of a fellow AF pilot and his passengers has left me distraught and in tears, I must believe that he sees what I can not see, and he now has the answers I have sought, but do not know.

May this stir us all to become better pilots then we are today. To be more vigilant then we would otherwise be. God bless those who's days are spent giving themselves to make our world a better place for others. God bless his family and the family of his passengers, and may God bless the controllers who expend themselves for us as we fly. God bless the good people at Angel Flight Northeast. We lament this tragedy, but we pray the next 20 years and 30,000 missions will be as safe as the past.
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: scofreyjet on August 12, 2008, 10:19:24 PM
This appears to be the plane in question, based on the reported owner and type.

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/nnumsql.asp?NNumbertxt=4615D (http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/nnumsql.asp?NNumbertxt=4615D)
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: KSYR-pjr on August 12, 2008, 10:35:54 PM
My family offers its prayers and heart felt sympathy and love to those families affected by this tragedy. We pray that though we are left bewildered, those who have passed from us today are now where they can see clearly. While the loss of a fellow AF pilot and his passengers has left me distraught and in tears, I must believe that he sees what I can not see, and he now has the answers I have sought, but do not know.

Nice words.  Thank you for taking the time to post.
Title: Re: Breaking news: Plane down in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: fholbert on August 12, 2008, 11:01:11 PM

I'm not sure if it is its first fatality.. There was the NGF crash off the SoCal coast a year or so back that killed the host for Press Your Luck..

Either way, this is very sad.. Even though three people perished, I wonder more about the person or people they were trying to help..  :cry:

BL.


It was Santa Monica. But he was empty on the way to pick up pax's.
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: flyingiceman on August 12, 2008, 11:58:56 PM
Video on story

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=4226712&cl=7263074&src=news
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: fholbert on August 13, 2008, 12:22:02 AM
Fatal crash 3rd in 3 months for volunteer pilots

> On June 3, a flight arranged by Angel Flight
> Central crashed in Iowa City, Iowa, killing a
> 2-year-old girl who had just been treated for
> clubfoot and injuring her mother and the pilot. On
> July 17, a plane flown by an Angel Flight Southeast
> volunteer crashed shortly after takeoff near Tampa,
> Fla., killing all three on board, including a
> 49-year-old cancer patient, a 15-year-old boy and
> the 81-year-old pilot.
>
> "It's been a very, very sad summer," Gollnick
> said. "The entire Angel Flight world is saddened and
> surprised and shocked that this is happening all at
> once."
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: dave on August 13, 2008, 12:55:23 AM
Resolution not great, but here is the flight path (courtesy of Passur) of NGF15D:

http://www.youtube.com/v/ff7CEg3LwqI
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: erspec on August 13, 2008, 07:33:43 AM
I have never heard anything so humbling and at the same time unbelievable as the ATC  transmission  of the Angel Flight crash that occur ed in Easton MA. I was speechless for an hour after that-! The controller,who I have dealt with many times(as I fly out of 1B9 in Mansfield, MA), was incredible. He should be proud of how he handled himself and the situation. My thoughts are with him, and of course the three who perished.
My take on this crash -sounds like spatial disorientation or vacuum failure.
Larry Spector, Bridgewater, MA
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: Dog6 on August 13, 2008, 08:09:39 AM
Just some thoughts.

Looked at the Flight Aware track and both the audio and passeur track.

Looked at the "B' chart for Boston, the approach charts for the 4R at KBOS.

Looked at the altitudes on the Flight Aware Track and the approach chart altitudes.

Looked at the METARS for the area at about accident time.

Drew a line on the "B" chart from 4R to crash location.

Perhaps this was a wake turbulence encounter, leading to the spatial
disorientation, followed by a stall/spin.

We have to learn by thinking about these sad things.
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: KSYR-pjr on August 13, 2008, 09:26:38 AM
Perhaps this was a wake turbulence encounter, leading to the spatial
disorientation, followed by a stall/spin.

That is certainly another possibility, given that his aircraft appeared to be about 1,000 feet below the previous aircraft on the approach (basing this on the data from Passeur.  One would suspect that ATC separation would have been sufficient, however, to prevent this.

Warning... media critique follows.  Turn back now if you don't want to read.

The Metro, which is a morning paper that is distributed free around Manhattan (NYC) mostly near the subway terminals, had a terribly sensationalistic sidebar headline in this morning's edition that read, "Bad History."   Next to the story of the accident this particular article went on to discuss the now three fatal Angel Flight crashes across the US (again, different branches of AF).  Of course, three crashes in over 100s of thousands of flights is not a bad history.  Bad timing or bad coincidence, perhaps, but not bad history.

I could go on here about why having such a negative light cast on such a charitable group is bad for society as a whole, but with a little deductive reasoning I think most could see the point I don't necessarily want to make here..

Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: TPL on August 13, 2008, 10:50:53 AM
Quote
I could go on here about why having such a negative light cast on such a charitable group is bad for society as a whole, but with a little deductive reasoning I think most could see the point I don't necessarily want to make here..

My fiancee was home yesterday and the local Boston stations were cutting in and out of the story.  But she said Channel 5 (local ABC affiliate) had a "Breaking News" cut in at one point with the 3 NGF crash history.  It's too bad they have to take this approach to cover a terrible loss, but given the direction of the media lately, I am not surprised.

In terms of the flight, summertime IMC with NE winds are tough at BOS.  Only 4R is used for landings, and summer sees an increase in traffic given the ramped up Cape Air flights.  It can get awfully tight for timing.  Those approach folks do a great job, and this was no exception.  I don't know how they keep their composure sometimes.

Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: joshua_ on August 13, 2008, 01:13:47 PM
My go-to guess as to what happened here was carbon monoxide impairment, which would have explained the response to the affirmative that he intended to maintain altitude.  If he lost vacuum, he still would have had airspeed and altimeter, hopefully.  I wouldn't rule out spatial disorientation, but with such an experienced pilot...

This is, no matter how it happened, a terrible tragedy.  The Angel Flights really do have a great safety record.  When I heard the controller's voice, I was left speechless... very chilling for somebody but a few days away from getting his private.
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: Dog6 on August 13, 2008, 01:52:56 PM
Accident Chain aside, remember that - "Fate is the Hunter"
in this business.
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: ATC@LWSK on August 13, 2008, 05:43:56 PM
'I think he's crashed'

August 13, 2008

In a dramatic recording, an air traffic controller can be heard growing increasingly concerned yesterday after watching the fluctuating altitude of the airplane that would eventually crash in Easton. The controller urges the pilot to maintain his altitude and then loses contact with him and wonders if he has crashed.

"Angel Flight 1-5 Delta, altitude indicates 1,200. Low-altitude alert, climb immediately," the controller says. "Angel Flight 1-5 Delta, climb immediately."

"1-5 Delta's climbing," comes the response.

"Angel Flight 1-5 Delta, maintain 3,000. Say heading," says the controller.

The pilot of the plane gives the controller his heading.

"Angel Flight 1-5 Delta, maintain 3,000. Say heading," the controller repeats a second later. But this time there's silence.

"Angel Flight 1-5 Delta, Boston, your altitude is going up and down. Are you all right, sir?" says the controller, who continues to guide other aircraft in between calls to the plane.

But there's no answer. "Is anyone acknowledging a receipt from that aircraft?" the controller asks.

Talking to another pilot, the controller later says, "Just west of you an airplane has gone off my radar. I think he's crashed."

The controller tells the other pilot, "His altitude went up, down, up, down, and then he disappeared off the radar at really low altitude."

The recording was provided by LiveATC.net, which maintains an archive of such recordings as an educational resource for pilots and air traffic controllers.

Source: http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2008/08/13/i_think_hes_crashed/
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: reesed on August 13, 2008, 07:17:17 PM
It was n4615d.
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: mark5388916 on August 13, 2008, 07:42:08 PM
I remember listening to my scanner after  mid-air near Corona Municpal.  On the Riverside Tower feed aircraft were calling to see if the tower cab saw anything on there radar scope, then you hear all the local police helicopters heading over there... very sad day that was.
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: nhpilot on August 13, 2008, 07:56:13 PM
Listening to the pilot/controller transcript, what immediately jumped out to me is that he seemed to be struggling with just basic communications at times from the very beginning. Seemed quite stressed at times.  Angel Flight is a wonderful organization, and the record does speak for itself. I do have a question for those involved. Is there a minimum requirement (currency, total time, etc) for participating in these missions? Can't imagine they would just let anyone volunteer. And is there some type of individual monitoring once you're signed on?

In any case, without further speculation, prayers go out to all involved.
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: KSYR-pjr on August 13, 2008, 08:20:05 PM
Is there a minimum requirement (currency, total time, etc) for participating in these missions? Can't imagine they would just let anyone volunteer. And is there some type of individual monitoring once you're signed on?

Minimum requirements vary from AF group to AF group, but for Angel Flight Northeast they require a current medical, a current biennial flight review, a minimum of 250 hours and, most importantly, an instrument rating.  They also require all flights to be flown under IFR.

As far as monitoring once you become a member, AFNE requires your medical and biennial flight review to remain current, and a current insurance certificate for the aircraft you fly plus the dates of the annual inspection and IFR certification.
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: twe on August 13, 2008, 08:40:43 PM
What was described as a "large S-shaped deviation"  in one of the replies appears to actually be downwind vectors by approach control as they searched for a window to turn him to final among the faster aircraft on the ILS 04R.  In fact, this is what the controller stated in the radio exchange when they asked for his final approach speed.
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: KSYR-pjr on August 13, 2008, 08:50:13 PM
What was described as a "large S-shaped deviation"  in one of the replies appears to actually be downwind vectors by approach control as they searched for a window to turn him to final among the faster aircraft on the ILS 04R. 

That has already been established over a day ago.  Four or five posts after the one to which you are referring I admitted that once I listened to the audio clip the reason for the deviation was very clear. 

What you seem to be missing now that you are reading this thread a day and a half later is that the first several posts here were actually appending to this thread while the fresh information about this accident was still being discovered.   
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: N628PW on August 14, 2008, 12:55:04 PM
My friend and I were discussing this. It's just so sad and mysterious. If I remember the METAR report, it was defiantly IMC, but nothing severe at all. Light Rain, a broken ceiling of maybe 900'. Otherwise 9SM vis. I mean, almost marginal VFR. Eh, maybe that's a stretch but still. I think during this very critical phase of flight the pilot somehow must have gotten disoriented. You're flying into a very busy class bravo, and your best forward is 130. Approach is trying to squeeze you in with jets easily doing 180 on approach.  Alot is going on in the cockpit during this time, and its very easy to get disoriented, lose awareness and perhaps stall/spin.

I'm a Boston native and resident. I know how important our hospitals are and how crucial these Angel Flights are. But perhaps if the pilot chose an alternate airport he may have been more comfortable and have an easier time. Boston Logan has PLENTY of class delta satellites that are a very close drive into the city. Bedford, Lawrence, Beverly, Norwood, etc. 

To me sequencing in an aircraft with a best forward of 130kts among those big guys is dangerous in itself. The pilot never mentioned any mechanical or systems failures. Never even declared priority or emergency. You could hear the fear in his voice on the audio however. You could hear the fear long before his altitude started fluctuating (if I recall correctly). I'm guessing he was doing his best to stay calm and collected for his passengers.

Anyway, this is my uneducated analysis of the incident. I'm not a pilot nor an ATC. I've been an enthusiast for years, and that's all I can say. I'm just going by what I remember hearing and reading (audio, transcripts, metars, etc)

Well, god bless the pilot and his passengers. I will be following this until the NTSB releases their official report (probably close to a year from now)

-Matt


Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: KSYR-pjr on August 14, 2008, 01:04:34 PM
To me sequencing in an aircraft with a best forward of 130kts among those big guys is dangerous in itself. The pilot never mentioned any mechanical or systems failures. Never even declared priority or emergency. You could hear the fear in his voice on the audio however. You could hear the fear long before his altitude started fluctuating (if I recall correctly). I'm guessing he was doing his best to stay calm and collected for his passengers.

As a pilot who has flown into Boston Logan under the Angel Flight callsign in both a C172 and a Bonanza V35 quite a few times, I respectfully disagree.   Dangerous in aviation is only when the skills required to handle the aircraft grossly exceed a pilot's capabilities.  

I am not at all implying that this accident pilot's capabilities were exceeded because I do not know his experiences, but keeping best speed forward in a Bonanza is a relatively easy thing to do:  You simply leave the gear up until hitting the outer marker on the ILS.

I will agree with your implication that flying into Boston in IMC as a single pilot does require a great deal of multitasking capabilities and the primary key is always be ahead of the aircraft and the phase of flight.  Always.
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: keith on August 14, 2008, 03:57:45 PM
That was absolutely gut wrenching to listen to.  I'm not one to pray, but I'm going to go ahead and give it a try, just in case it will help those affected by this accident.

As someone who recently received their instrument rating, this clip does nothing but increase my resolve to make sure I stay as sharp as possible at all times any time I'm operating an airplane.

To the poster who commented that the pilot seemed slightly out of sorts over the radio, I agree that on one of the check-ins, he seemed slightly distracted as he read back the altimeter, but from that point onward, his radio work seemed sharp as ever, reading back new heading assignments instantly, including calculating a new heading when assigned '10 degrees right' by ATC.

Full credit to the controllers for doing their level best while dealing with a sky full of airplanes on final.  I also give credit to the other pilots on frequency for minimizing their transmissions and speaking quickly to keep the frequency clear. You can just tell that everyone was paying attention and hoping for the best possible outcome.

If this turns out to be wake turbulence related, it will shake me even more, if that's possible.
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: dave on August 14, 2008, 04:26:15 PM
In looking at some of the data available at the time, and looking at the excellent job done by the controller building space on the 4R final, it seems unlikely that wake turbulence was a factor.  Not out of the question, just unlikely.

KBOS 121354Z 35008KT 9SM -RA BKN009 BKN027 OVC050 17/15 A2970 RMK AO2 SLP056 P0002 T01720150

Surface winds at Boston were out of 350 degrees at 8 knots.  Assuming the winds at 3,000 feet were not that different (winds aloft at 3,000 seem to have been trending out of the north/northwest all week), then it seems that any undissipated wake left over from the preceding jet (which was not close to the Bonanza at all) would probably have been off-course and not encountered by the Bonanza.  In addition, wake turbulence is less hazardous during the en route phase of flight, as opposed to takeoff and landing.

I am sure the NTSB will look at all angles and it will be educational to eventually read the final report, as those reports are useful reading for all active pilots.



Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: KSYR-pjr on August 14, 2008, 04:35:22 PM
I am sure the NTSB will look at all angles and it will be educational to eventually read the final report, as those reports are useful reading for all active pilots.

AvWeb just announced that Aviation Safety will be doing an expanded analysis article on the Angel Flight accidents later this year.  Seems somewhat aggressive to me given that it normally takes up to one full year for the NTSB to release a final report for an accident.
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: Dog6 on August 14, 2008, 08:35:42 PM

More thoughts on Wake Turbulence -

No arguments here, just sharing information and I certainly hope the NTSB considers the possibility of
wake turbulence.



Submitted for consideration the following:

The METAR at KBOS for 1415Z (nearer the time of accident) had the winds at 35008G14KT.

Two other stations report METAR information closer to the accident site: They are KMEQ, the Blue Hills Observatory, just west of the approach course at just about 9 NM out from KBOS.  And KOWD, Norwood Airport, west of the approach course at just about 12 NM  out from KBOS.  It's a shame Mansfield does
not have an ASOS/AWOS.

The Runway 4R direction at KBOS is 040 degrees MAGNETIC.

The Approach Course is 036 degrees Magnetic.

The METAR winds (source AIM 7-1-12) are reported in tens of degrees from TRUE NORTH, to make the
True North winds Magnetic a correction is made by considering Magnetic Variation (east is least/west is best).  The Magnetic Variation is 15 degrees West in the accident area.  So 15 is added to the
True North winds to obtain a Magnetic wind direction.

KBOS at 1415Z - 35008G14KTS (True) would be 005 degrees (Magnetic)

KMEQ at 1354Z - 34007KTS (True) would be 355 degrees (Magnetic)

KOWD at 1400Z - 01007KTS (True) would be 025 degrees (Magnetic)[/b]


Additionally, surface winds generally shift to the right as altitude increases, because surface friction
ends about 1000' AGl.

It is reasonable to consider that the winds aloft at 3000' and 4000' would be more Northeast and
could cause Wake Turbulence to be sitting along and west of the transition/final approach course a lot longer than one would think.

I consider that being assigned 3000' under all that "big boy" traffic at 4000', caused the upset leading to the spatial disorientation.

The AIM (Aeronautical Information Manual) at 7-3-1 presents Wake Turbulence, it is worth a refresher.


We need to think about this stuff.









Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: KSYR-pjr on August 14, 2008, 09:41:27 PM
Here are some statistics that were included in an email from Angel Flight to its pilots today.   Please keep these in mind when you read the many sensationalistic headlines in the papers, on the web, and those barfed out by the talking heads:

Quote
It is with deep sadness that we mourn the loss of one of our Angel Flights on Monday.

As we grieve the loss of three very special lives, we also remember all the lives that Angel Flight continues to bring healing, hope and help too.

Angel Flight Northeast has been flying for over 12 years. We have booked 53,000 children and adults on 30,000 scheduled flights flying 7.6 million miles without an accident or injury. Monday’s tragic accident was the first in our history.

Unfortunately in the past three months, Angel Flight Central and Angel Flight Southeast also experienced accidents. These three accidents were the first in 25 years of flying for the five independent major Angel Flight groups in the country that make up the Air Charity Network to which we belong.

Collectively in 25 years, volunteer pilots flying Angel Flight missions have flown more than 160,000 flights, flying just under 100 million miles nationwide without an injury or accident.
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: KSYR-pjr on August 14, 2008, 09:52:35 PM
More thoughts on Wake Turbulence -

You forgot one important fact about wake turbulence.  Wake turbulence descends at almost 900 feet per minute.   Thus, an aircraft 1,000 feet below and behind another aircraft would have to be within one minute of the previous aircraft to risk encountering the previous aircraft's wake.   One minute at 161 miles per hour (140 kts, or the speed at which the Bonanza was attempting to maintain on approach) is about 2.7 miles, which I am pretty sure is not ATC separation for a small aircraft behind a large aircraft on an ILS approach.
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: dave on August 14, 2008, 10:03:37 PM
More thoughts on Wake Turbulence -

(all good observations)

We need to think about this stuff.

I am left remembering one quote that has stuck with me for a long time:
"The difference between theory and practice is that in theory there is no difference between theory and practice."

The Bonanza was several miles (!) behind an E135 with 1,000 feet of vertical separation.  I think those winds would have had to be howling a little more for any wake to reach the Bonanza.  But I could be wrong.  I am certainly not an expert.  Far from it.

Again, not saying that there is no way a wake turbulence encounter occurred.  It's a probability game.  I would put my money on not.  Small pistons are sequenced behind transport jets every day at many airports.  From what I have been able to gather, actual wake encounters are more on the rare side.  But they do happen.

Just some more food for thought.  I don't see how the actual flight conditions will ever be uncovered - but the NTSB is good at what they do and, whre possible, they piece things together pretty well.  So we'll see.



Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: JALTO on August 15, 2008, 11:50:08 AM
chilling audio.....

Does the FAA provide any sort of service for the controller that handled the situation?

Jalto
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: namwera51 on August 15, 2008, 12:16:14 PM
I realize that the controller was busy, but should he not have picked up the "busting" of assigned altitude before he got down to 1200 feet??
I fly out of Norwood Mass, and I know that people can be written up for busting altitude.
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: KSYR-pjr on August 15, 2008, 12:32:54 PM
I realize that the controller was busy, but should he not have picked up the "busting" of assigned altitude before he got down to 1200 feet??

The controller did pick up on it.  Listen again and you should first hear the controller call the AF pilot when the pilot dropped to 2,300.
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: vncfl on August 15, 2008, 07:37:07 PM
Per somebody else's comments RE: "I consider that being assigned 3000' under all that "big boy" traffic at 4000', caused the upset leading to the spatial disorientation."

Yah, I'm going with that!  I've reviewed what we have available to us as pilots as we all do.  Luckily, we're not authorized to make the final decision of cause.  But, as we all did, I 'tracked' the flight on flightaware, heard the tapes posted, reviewed Passuur, etc.

My FIRST instinct, before reading any comments on this site, was 'wake turbulence' at the IAF after looking and listening to all the information available above.

The history of the pilot shows nothing but proficiency not only in flying in general, but the specific aircraft as well.  I think he showed his true colors of professionalism of maintaining very adequate control of his composure during what I'm sure was a terrifying experience for him.

Thank goodness we're not all NTSB investigators.  We'd have this 'case' solved.  I'm going with the past posts: WAKE TURBULANCE.



Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: KSYR-pjr on August 16, 2008, 06:40:15 AM
Thank goodness we're not all NTSB investigators.  We'd have this 'case' solved. I'm going with the past posts: WAKE TURBULANCE.

You seem to imply that you are a real life pilot ("...what we have available to us as pilots...") so let me first ask this as a baseline:  Are you instrument rated and, more importantly, have you ever hand flown an aircraft in IMC? 
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: eppy on August 16, 2008, 07:25:39 AM
After hearing the 'up and down' from the controller, my thoughts turned to the possibility of a structural failure in the tail. I did some searching and found this  at the University of Texas engineering department

http://www.tsgc.utexas.edu/archive/general/ethics/vtail.html

To quote: (my bold emphasis)
the V-tail has a very high rate of in-flight failures. Compared with the Model 33, which is the same aircraft with a conventional straight-tail, the V-tail has a fatal in-flight failure rate 24 times as high as the Straight tail Bonanza. In spite of this glaring statistic, Beech claimed that there was no problem with the V-tail, and for many years the public seemed to agree with Beech. However, the deaths from in-flight failures continued to mount. The V-tail Bonanza is a classic tale of a dangerous item, which because of its popularity continued to kill.

That is an alarming statistic!

Tim
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: KSYR-pjr on August 16, 2008, 07:43:03 AM
That is an alarming statistic!

Old news that is not at all accurate nor current in the manner in which you presented it.  If you read the entire article you would have discovered the fact about the FAA releasing an emergency AD and Beechcraft coming up with a collar modification that significantly strengthened the rear stabilizers.

With these retrofit strengthening kits mandated by the FAA a couple of decades ago as well as a recurring spar inspection AD, V-tails have no more of a history breaking up in flight than any other aircraft flown into an area of extreme turbulence (read:  thunderstorm or strong turbulence off the lee side of a mountain) or those where the pilot has lost control in IMC and then attempted to exert drastic control forces in an attempt to pull out.

Additionally, if you noticed the crash pictures you would have seen the distinctive V-tail with its ruddervators still connected to the charred wreckage.   This aircraft did not break up in flight.

Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: expalman on August 16, 2008, 05:01:40 PM
Hi all...

I am an instrument pilot in training, and one should consider the pilot's physical and mental well-being before and during the flight.  I listened carefully to the recording (thanks for the posting .. excellent job of stitching it together) and the pilot seemed flustered for some reason.  When I make similar mistakes in my training, they seem to compound and you get less self-confident as time goes on.  Any distractions after making errors, no matter how small could become a major distraction.  He was pretty much a solid overcast, which is not a lot of fun to fly in for a while.  He flew as close as 15m from the airport after crossing 128 and then had to turn back south to enter the approach.

He made three errors in all, but the last one was fairly serious, but not a killer unless the root cause was something was distracting him from performing the task.  He flew through the localizer.  But, ATC never cleared him for the approach, which could have been a little upsetting because it is not normal procedure. 

In this case as the others, ATC corrected his course but I think whatever was bothering him earlier in the flight with the errors made, now distracted him much worse and took his attention from keeping the localizer centered and at altitude.

One cannot rule out that wake turbulence contributed to the accident, but I think his physical and/or mental well-being has to be brought into question when he was so distracted to not adhere to ATC requests.

I feel for the family and friends of the pilot and his passengers.  I lost my instructor to an in-flight break-up accident. 

regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: dave on August 16, 2008, 06:24:48 PM
I am an instrument pilot in training, and one should consider the pilot's physical and mental well-being before and during the flight.  I listened carefully to the recording (thanks for the posting .. excellent job of stitching it together) and the pilot seemed flustered for some reason.  When I make similar mistakes in my training, they seem to compound and you get less self-confident as time goes on.  Any distractions after making errors, no matter how small could become a major distraction.  He was pretty much a solid overcast, which is not a lot of fun to fly in for a while.  He flew as close as 15m from the airport after crossing 128 and then had to turn back south to enter the approach.

Instrument flying is challenging and the Instrument Rating is one of the more challenging pilot ratings to obtain.  It is very easy for mistakes to compound - and it can happen quite rapidly.  If the pilot is not able to recognize mistakes rapidly and recover them, sometimes the results can be fatal.  So your comments here are right on and I hope you succeed in your instrument training and learn all the important lessons.

He made three errors in all, but the last one was fairly serious, but not a killer unless the root cause was something was distracting him from performing the task.  He flew through the localizer.  But, ATC never cleared him for the approach, which could have been a little upsetting because it is not normal procedure. 

Another thing about aviation accidents is that they are frequently a series of errors; it's not always just one thing.  The pattern here appears to match your observations.  Except for one comment - the fact that ATC never cleared him for the approach is not abnormal at all.  This is a perfectly normal procedure, that is, to vector a pilot and then instruct him to intercept the localizer (or other type of final approach course). "Turn left to 060, intercept the localizer" were the instructions in this case, instructions the pilot acknowledged.  Whether or not one is cleared for the approach is irrelevant.  The controller was building the final stream of traffic - he might have decided to pull an aircraft out of the flow and other possibilities....so he held off on the approach clearance until he was sure the spacing was going to work, and sure the pilot joined the final.  It happens all too often that a GA pilot has some kind of flying issue - had he been cleared and then lost radio contact then the traffic management situation would have become a lot more complex for the controller and all the rest of the arrivals.  As reliable as things are, controllers always need to have lost comms in mind - as well as ensuring separation despite lost comms.

In this case as the others, ATC corrected his course but I think whatever was bothering him earlier in the flight with the errors made, now distracted him much worse and took his attention from keeping the localizer centered and at altitude.

One cannot rule out that wake turbulence contributed to the accident, but I think his physical and/or mental well-being has to be brought into question when he was so distracted to not adhere to ATC requests.

I feel for the family and friends of the pilot and his passengers.  I lost my instructor to an in-flight break-up accident. 

The determination of this will be left to the NTSB and you may be right.  Nothing can be ruled out until the investigation is complete.

Very sorry to hear about you losing your instructor - that is sure to shake any pilot up, just like the loss of the generous pilot who lost his life along with two other wonderful people in this flight.

Dave
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: nhpilot on August 17, 2008, 03:56:48 PM
...........one should consider the pilot's physical and mental well-being before and during the flight.  I listened carefully to the recording (thanks for the posting .. excellent job of stitching it together) and the pilot seemed flustered for some reason. 

Thought the same thing...reference post above. Sometimes what's on paper doesn't reflect true competency.

RIP to all~
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: DoctorOfLove on August 18, 2008, 02:31:01 AM
Appeal to authority:

I have flown numerous Angel Flights to Logan
I have hit jet wake once in my career, squarely, violently, on short final to 4R at Logan.
I have had a vacuum pump failure in IMC.

His radio behavior wasn't as crisp as you shoot for, but had he landed and flown for another 20 years, it would have seemed nothing out of the ordinary (except, at the end, when he more or less wasn't responding to calls from the controller, answering a low altitude alert with his heading, apparently).  I've heard much worse, even in IMC at big airports like Logan (um, er, say again...) and no one crashed.

A wake turbulence encounter of any significance would have killed the flight immediately.  It is difficult to overstate the violence of a jet wake encounter.  IMC at 3000?  You would be a lawn dart.  There would have been no leveling off at 1200, and no further radio calls.

My guess?  He had a medical emergency.  A stroke, a heart attack, a fainting spell.  It would explain the behavior of the aircraft.  He passes out, the plane starts a descent.  He regains conscious control briefly, realizes he was low, mis heard the controller's low altitude alert (he had flown through the localizer, I could see the confusion over what the controller was asking for).  He started a climb, stated his heading, had another medical event, that was that, plane entered a final spin.

My wake encounter was on a clear sunny day, maybe 300 feet above 4R, with jet traffic departing to the east underneath me (11?).  Flew through a big jets wake (an A340 I think) at a right angle.  My plane rose and fell 6 feet faster than you could comprehend the event.   Had I been lined up with the departing traffic, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that that would have been it.    The overwhelming power of the event was incredible (in the true meaning of that word).  Landed uneventfully, mechanic never found anything wrong with my plane.  Ground crew at Logan saw it and asked me about it, my comment was "holy sh*t".  I have 2100 hours, lots in bad weather and I have never hit turbulence even remotely approaching it.  Maybe flying directly into a tornado would match it.

Yeah, yeah, I'll just roll my plane through it, you think.  Um no.  And in IMC at 3000?  You wouldn't even know what happened.  Lawn dart.  On the scope one second, gone the next.  So no, he didn't hit wake turbulence.  If the angel flight pilot had a jet wake encounter in IMC, and regained control while still in IMC while losing only 1800 feet, then he was a fantastic pilot.  In which case, it makes no sense that he couldn't finish the flight.   He had a medical emergency.

As far as Angel Flight having three accidents after many years of having none?  Random doesn't mean even, it means random.   Be another 20 years before they have another.
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: Bassman on August 18, 2008, 06:20:52 PM
To the poster who commented that the pilot seemed slightly out of sorts over the radio, I agree that on one of the check-ins, he seemed slightly distracted as he read back the altimeter, but from that point onward, his radio work seemed sharp as ever, reading back new heading assignments instantly, including calculating a new heading when assigned '10 degrees right' by ATC.

He calculated the new heading wrong. Or, he calculated it correctly but wasn't flying the assigned heading before he was issued the 10 degree change.
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: keith on August 19, 2008, 11:02:44 AM
Bassman, how do you figure that?
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: Dog6 on August 20, 2008, 03:48:41 PM
Wake Turbulence - Some more "food for thought" and certainly not the answer.

A book written by Rich Stowell - "Emergency Maneuver Training" in 1996, chapter 8, ppg 129 - 136, dealing with wake turbulence; "In the Pattern, Invisible Tornadoes, Aircraft Configuration Effects, Atmospheric Effects, Separation, Elevation and Being Prepared."

Not the usual AIM stuff.  One interesting piece of information relates that: "As a vortex
looses altitude, the surrounding atmospheric pressure increases.  The mounting pressure compresses the vortex, causes its temperature to rise.  As the vortex warms up, it becomes more buoyant and its rate of descent slows.  It may eventually level off at a constant altitude until its energy dissipates

Also covered is that temperature inversions and turbulence can break up vortices's quicker.

Another good source is undaerocast.com, UND podcasts in the ATC section.  The podcast on WT mentions separation standards of 3 miles between arriving traffic, the exception being 757 traffic where separation is 5 miles.

Both these sources are worth a look - a very good refresher - no matter what your thoughts are on this accident.

Concluding:

"Weather never ceases to be flying's torment",  North Star Over My Shoulder by
Bob Buck.
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: nhpilot on August 21, 2008, 12:37:38 PM

His radio behavior wasn't as crisp as you shoot for, but had he landed and flown for another 20 years, it would have seemed nothing out of the ordinary.......

My guess?  He had a medical emergency.  A stroke, a heart attack, a fainting spell.  It would explain the behavior of the aircraft.  He passes out, the plane starts a descent.  He regains conscious control briefly, realizes he was low, mis heard the controller's low altitude alert (he had flown through the localizer, I could see the confusion over what the controller was asking for).  He started a climb, stated his heading, had another medical event, that was that, plane entered a final spin.


Doc,

That's the point that was being made. He didn't sound "right" from the get-go. Sure we've all heard worse on the radio and nothing ever comes of it, but this one unfortunately did. You have to feel that being "mentally or physically" incapacitated may have possibly contributed.

As far as the wake turbulence issue, unless he encountered one and got disoriented over several minutes, I agree it would have ended much more abruptly.

As a side note, I recently hit some wake (B747) over the North Atlantic (even with an offset) in a Gulfstream and can tell you that it doesn't care about the size of the airplane it chooses.................it will get your attention and rattle your fillings clear out.  :-o
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: Dog6 on August 26, 2008, 11:01:16 AM
The preliminary info NTSB is available at ntsb.gov

At the monthly list for August, the 12th.

http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/AccList.asp?month=8&year=2008

Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: Hollis on August 26, 2008, 02:48:37 PM
Based on the NTSB report, and the audio clip, I would agree with other commenters that the poor guy was beginning to have progressively serious medical problems and was not able to 'follow' his instruments. He was probably unconcious when the aircraft spun.
I base part of that on a similar experience years ago. Had a pilot pass out cold. Fortunately I was in the cockpit also, but didn't realize what was happening until we were rolling through 90 degrees and I saw him slumped over. Didn't take me long to grab the controls and recover! He also recovered by the time we got back to the airport. Turned out he had had a heat stroke. 
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: Robin Rebhan on August 29, 2008, 08:00:22 PM
Lately over the past few months or so. I have noticed more pilots on these clips that have become confused or befuddled. Most thank goodness,  without incident. I somewhat wonder if there isn't a new "medication that is wrong for you" out there? Or if there isn't something else going on medically?

Could be we just have more good people here getting better at capturing and recording incidents like these and bringing them to our attention.

This accident really touched my heart, because $$ permitting I look forward to getting my commercial pilot and flying for Angel Flight.
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: KSYR-pjr on August 29, 2008, 09:06:26 PM
This accident really touched my heart, because $$ permitting I look forward to getting my commercial pilot and flying for Angel Flight.

You don't (yet) need a commercial certificate to fly for Angel Flight.  A private pilot certificate with an instrument rating and 250 hours total time (and perhaps 25 hours on instruments - I forgot if this is also a requirement) will qualify you to fly for Angel Flight Northeast.
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: 1958MM on August 31, 2008, 03:07:20 PM
Based on the NTSB report, and the audio clip, I would agree with other commenters that the poor guy was beginning to have progressively serious medical problems and was not able to 'follow' his instruments. He was probably unconcious when the aircraft spun.

Nothing but pure speculation. The preliminary NTSB report indicates no medical problems whatsover. However, it clearly indicates the pilot had lost control of the situation and the airplane:

"1014, when the flight was at 3,600 feet and approximately 1.3 nautical mile northwest of the localizer at 170 knots ground speed"

"1017, ...controller then advised the pilot that the altitude indicated 2,300 feet, then immediately informed him radar contact was lost. ...The controller advised the pilot that the airplane was at 1,200 feet, issued a low altitude alert...instructed the pilot twice to "climb immediately." The pilot responded "5 Delta's climbing."

"The recorded radar data indicated that the flight climbed to 2,700 feet at a ground speed of 85 knots."

"The recorded radar data indicated the airplane then descended to 2,400 feet at a ground speed of 68 knots" This was probably AFTER he had stalled the airplane during the abrupt climb to 2,700 feet, or he pushed over just as the aircraft was stalling. At this point, it was over.

I fail to understand why so many of you want to attribute this classic loss of spatial orientation and a stall/spin to medical deficiencies, structural failure, and wake turbulence when no evidence whatsoever exists for it.

Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: KSYR-pjr on August 31, 2008, 03:24:11 PM
I fail to understand why so many of you want to attribute this classic loss of spatial orientation and a stall/spin to medical deficiencies, structural failure, and wake turbulence when no evidence whatsoever exists for it.

I tend to be in agreement with your assessment but there could always be some other factor to consider as the final link in this accident that will never be uncovered in the investigation due to the condition of the aircraft and pilot post-crash.  For example, one factor that may have led to the loss of spatial orientation could have been vacuum or AI instrument failure, not pilot error directly. 

Considering the fact that this approximate 1955 aircraft was not flown by the owner, questions come to my mind such as, did it have a modern, IFR-rated GPS and moving map (which together provide excellent situational awareness, even on an ILS)?  Were squawks related to maintenance, especially avionics, timely addressed?  How about preventive maintenance related to avionics?

In my opinion, to truly understand how quickly things can go wrong between level, coordinated, and controlled flight and unusual attitude leading to a loss of spatial orientation (especially in a Bonanza) in IMC, one has to have experienced hand-flying in IMC firsthand.  As an active instrument pilot of a Bonanza I can attest to the speed at which an aircraft in IMC could slip into an unusual attitude due to either instrument scanning distraction (reaching for a chart or rereading an instrument approach's minimums) or even improper instrument scanning (focusing on only one gauge too long due to cockpit task overload).
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: DoctorOfLove on August 31, 2008, 05:24:23 PM


I fail to understand why so many of you want to attribute this classic loss of spatial orientation and a stall/spin to medical deficiencies, structural failure, and wake turbulence when no evidence whatsoever exists for it.



Because that is the central purpose of an intertubes message board.  Rank speculation and rumor.

And there isn't no evidence:  he sounded bad, he crashed in a 43 year old v tail bonaza, and logan has plenty of wake turbulence to go around.  That seems to provide some evidence supporting all three rank speculations and rumors.

Two years from now, when no one remembers, the NTSB will come out with a probably unsatisfactory report (unsatisfactory because of the absence of a cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder) and in the mean time, there will be plenty of other stuff to speculate rankly about. 

Based on the only evidence available, my opinion, he stroked out.
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: 1958MM on August 31, 2008, 06:14:29 PM

Based on the only evidence available, my opinion, he stroked out.
[/quote]

That's just it, there's no evidence whatsoever that "he stroked out." There's just as much evidence that he was zapped by an E.T. in a nearby UFO.

On the other hand, if there is an autopsy that indicates medical incapacitation, then there would be such evidence that he "stroked out."
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: 1958MM on August 31, 2008, 06:39:39 PM

In my opinion, to truly understand how quickly things can go wrong between level, coordinated, and controlled flight and unusual attitude leading to a loss of spatial orientation (especially in a Bonanza) in IMC, one has to have experienced hand-flying in IMC firsthand.  As an active instrument pilot of a Bonanza I can attest to the speed at which an aircraft in IMC could slip into an unusual attitude due to either instrument 

Even though there's no indication of medical distress in the pilot's voice, as a Bonanza pilot you should be able to listen to the other sounds on the recording to determine what's happening. As a former Bonanza pilot, I think I hear it.

But it's really a moot point, isn't it? We been advised that when a 43 year old V-tail Bonanza crashes, that's evidence for structural failure. And we know how many planes have crashed at Logan because of wake turbulence.
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: Hollis on August 31, 2008, 09:18:48 PM
There is really no need to speculate on this. I'm sure the NTSB guys will have the answer in due time.
Meantime, we can only assume what MIGHT have happened. For instance, had there been a structural failure, or a critical equipment failure, I'm sure the pilot would have declared an emergency.
My opinion, as were some others here, was just ONE of the more likely 'probable cause' situations.
 
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: NoMad on September 01, 2008, 11:01:48 AM
C'mon guys.  Space aliens could have abducted the pilot, then put him back a minute later and he was too dazed to regain control.

I'm exagerating but the point is there is no radio or radar evidence that can conclusively point to one explanation or another.  Witness statements vary and also can not point to one conclusion or another.  All parties involved died in the crash so you can't ask them.

So assuming the investigators don't find any obvious pre-crash mechanical or structural defects, the cause of the crash will never be conclusive and will remain as something like "unknown human factors".  Maybe it was simple IFR spacial disorientation.  Maybe he was sick.  Maybe he encountered wake turbulance from the star ship enterprise.  Maybe an instrument vacuum line popped off.  Nobody can or every will know.

So all the bickering and arguing of what might have caused it is pointless.
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: Robin Rebhan on September 01, 2008, 06:18:45 PM
The loss of an Angel Flight strikes the heart of many here and the personal hurt is great. As pilots, ATC, aviation enthusiasts, some are Angel Flight volunteers or with similar groups themselves. Every one grieves for the loss.

This is a forum where we are all friends that have a common bond of aviation. As such, we are able to talk or discuss the issue. We all like to bring some sort of closure. What caused the accident? How can it be prevented in the future? How can it be prevented on my next flight?

 We are not trying to be judgemental in speculation. AOPA, ASF, Nall Report, and NTSB Statistical analysis are all too grim as to General Aviation accidents. The statistics change little from year to year. 65% of fatal accidents are pilot error, 14% weather, 7% mechanical failure and the rest unknown.

     We discuss probable cause in hopes that pilots, atc and future pilots will learn, think safe, be safe. And forever be mindful as to how unforgiving mistakes in flight can be. Flight is a most dangerous mistress.

As Wilbur Wright said-

 " If you are looking for perfect safety,
you will do well to sit on a fence and watch the birds;
but if you really wish to learn,
you must mount a machine and
become acquainted with its tricks by actual trial."
—Wilbur Wright, 1901

We look to pass on our life experiences in flight that you may not have to learn the hard way by actual trial. If discussion heals one saddened person it is well, if it saves one life, it is better still.

Safe flying to all!
Robin Rebhan
Albany, NY
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: KSYR-pjr on September 01, 2008, 06:26:34 PM
The loss of an Angel Flight strikes the heart of many here and the personal hurt is great. As pilots, ATC, aviation enthusiasts, some are Angel Flight volunteers or with similar groups themselves. Every one grieves for the loss.

This is a forum where we are all friends that have a common bond of aviation. As such, we are able to talk or discuss the issue. We all like to bring some sort of closure. What caused the accident? How can it be prevented in the future? How can it be prevented on my next flight?

Well written, Robin.  I don't see the opposing viewpoints here as bickering - just opposing viewpoints.  And since this is the only forum to which I post that allows discussion of this subject by well educated and experienced peers, participating in it does offer some type of solace.
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: 1958MM on September 01, 2008, 07:40:15 PM
As Wilbur Wright said-

 " If you are looking for perfect safety,
you will do well to sit on a fence and watch the birds;

The passengers of any airplane should expect almost "perfect safety."

IMHO - Angel Flight pilots should be commercial rated.
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: KSYR-pjr on September 01, 2008, 11:26:02 PM
IMHO - Angel Flight pilots should be commercial rated.

You throw up a barrier like that and you can then expect somewhere around an immediate 60-80% drop in number of volunteering pilots.   How many flights would then go unfilled each month?   Approximately 75-80%, since often most flights are flown by the same pilots.  To give all an idea of volume Angel Flight Northeast provides somewhere in the order of 15-25 flights per week, or about 100 flights per month.  So my hypothesis is that around 80 flights would go unfilled each month.

With unfilled flights you then have patients making the very difficult choice between extremely excruciating auto or train round trip commutes and perhaps saying to hell with going that appointment.  Then what?  Possible that health or quality of life problems significantly increase for these people?

A knee jerk, appease-the-masses-type reaction to what is an extremely small percentage of fatal accidents since AF's inception would be detrimental to those who rely on AF for their recurring cancer/burn/organ transplant treatments.  IMHO.

Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: Robin Rebhan on September 02, 2008, 05:10:58 PM
     A Commercial Rating does not make a dent in the statistics accident wise. What does matter is good solid aeronautical decision making no matter what your rating or how many hours you have flown. Avoiding dangerous attitudes, good thorough flight planning and preflight and etc. all the way from takeoff to landing. Majority of GA accidents would be avoided if the pilot in command had exercised a good go, no-go decision.
     Nobody ever said doing the right thing is easy. It may well be the most gut-wretching decision you have to ever make and that's telling a medical patient that the flight is a no-go, but, it is the right decision.

     Have a Safe Flight!
     Robin Rebhan
     Albany, NY

     
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: KSYR-pjr on September 03, 2008, 08:59:19 AM
IMHO - Angel Flight pilots should be commercial rated.

Interesting... the NTSB preliminary report indicates the accident pilot was a certificated commercial pilot.   It seems as if that barrier alone wouldn't have helped in this case.
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: mk on September 03, 2008, 10:46:48 AM
yeah...so make these Angel Flight Pilots get their commercial rating...now you the same pilot who can do lazy 8s...that doesn't help in real world flying.  i'd venture to guess that over 70% of the Angel Flight Network Pilots qualify for a commercial upgrade. (hour requirement wise)
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: Robin Rebhan on September 10, 2008, 05:59:54 PM
There is an interesting article in the July issue of Flying Magazine. Page- 58 " Low Speed Loss of Control ". Written by my favorite author Richard L. Collins.
1st accident in the article has a number of similarities to the one in question. It's a good read.  http://www.flyingmag.com/piloting/1002/low-speed-loss-of-control.html
Robin Rebhan
Albany, NY
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: B1900Mech on August 23, 2009, 02:25:02 AM
It sounded to me like the pilot was having medical issues, Maybe a heart attack?
Title: Re: Plane crash (NGF15D) in Easton, MA (near Mansfield, MA 1B9)
Post by: aviator_06 on August 24, 2009, 10:54:20 PM
First time I heard of the accident. My prayers go out to all the families