LiveATC Discussion Forums
Air Traffic Monitoring => Aviation Audio Clips => Topic started by: sunburn on January 22, 2007, 05:02:04 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnEtr6Ei1sc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnEtr6Ei1sc)
Hello. I came across this on YouTube and I just thought I'd share.
It's a video taken from the dash of a Speedbird B777 and shows a night approach at JFK. Canarsie VOR with visual transition and full audio.
I rather enjoyed this. Apologies if you've already seen it before.
.mark
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Great video, how many sets of approach lights did he pass over?
I could watch cockpit videos for hours!
like this one perhaps--> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmYIc-a4BNk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmYIc-a4BNk)
dan
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Depending on the runway in use, it's called the Canarsie slam dunk!
Greg
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Thats a really interesting approach and very cool video! Used up every bit of the TDZ 8-)
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TDZ ?
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TDZ ?
Touchdown Zone.
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Great video, how many sets of approach lights did he pass over?
You can see the location of the light clusters on the approach plate (the circles):
http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0701/00610PARKWAY_VIS13LR.PDF
Great video.
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some good coaching from the captain there!
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Couple questions:
What does mean when he says "your in the slot"? What does "50 above" mean by the automated female voice, then decide? What were they refering to when they kept saying 430. At what point do you drop the gear on an approach and when do you go from flaps 05 to flaps 20?
Really cool video, I think ive watched it 10 times!
Dan
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"You're in the slot" means, i believe, you're on the correct glidepath.
"50 above" is the TAWS warning - 50 feet above the terrain right below them.
"Decide" - your at minimums for the approach, continue or go missed.
"430" would be the descent rate in feet per minute.
You drop the gear when the flying pilot asks for it, generally around the outer marker or final approach fix (in this case).
Flaps are added as needed, so maybe he was a little high and needed to come down a litter faster without gaining too much speed.
Hope this helps,
Greg
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"50 above" is the TAWS warning - 50 feet above the terrain right below them.
No, that would have been just "50!"
The alert "50 above!" is 50 feet above the MDA/DA set in the alerter. Thus, it comes right before "Decide!"
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50 feet above the MDA/DA set in the alerter
What is MDA/DA ?
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Minimum Descent Altitude/Decision Height
The point at which a pilot must decide if he will continue the approach or go around. Pilot must have visual of the runway or runway lead-in lights to continue.
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Pilot must have visual of the runway or runway lead-in lights to continue.
Except on a CAT III (autoland) approach. ;-)
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Peter, correction, on a CAT IIIc.
;)
Greg
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Except that a CAT IIIC approach has no MVA/DH :-P
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Except that a CAT IIIC approach has no MVA/DH :-P
You mean it has no DA. ;)
Greg
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Except that a CAT IIIC approach has no MVA/DH :-P
You mean it has no DA. ;)
Greg
you know your stuff!
how are you guys? first post for me
-Alex
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Except that a CAT IIIC approach has no MVA/DH :-P
You mean it has no DA. ;)
Greg
you know your stuff!
how are you guys? first post for me
-Alex
Thanks... :-)
I hope so, i have to take a written test on Saturday. Little nervous.
Thanks and welcome aboard.
Greg
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Except that a CAT IIIC approach has no MVA/DH :-P
You mean it has no DA. ;)
Greg
Technically it has neither :-D
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Correct. It does, however, have an "alert altitude" at 100 feet.
Greg
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Except that a CAT IIIC approach has no MVA/DH :-P
You mean it has no DA. ;)
Greg
you know your stuff!
how are you guys? first post for me
-Alex
Thanks... :-)
I hope so, i have to take a written test on Saturday. Little nervous.
Thanks and welcome aboard.
Greg
Well thanks for welcoming me.
And I wish you luck on your test!!
-Alex
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My pleasure and thank you! ;)
Greg
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You mean it has no DA. ;)
DA, Greg? I think you might be mixing up the two acronyms.
DH, as in Decision Height, is what typically applies to precision approaches, such as an ILS approach.
MDA, as in Minimum Decent Altitude, is what typically applies to non-precision approaches.
In regards to types of CAT III approaches and published DHs, both CAT IIIA and CAT IIIB can have only RVR minimums without a published DH.
Here's an example from JFK (NY). Note that the minimums table at the bottom only indicate an RVR minimum but no DH:
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/approach/pdfs/00610I4RC3.PDF
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Peter, at this stage in the game, i hope i'm not mixing these things up.
DA = Decision Altitude. This refers to the MSL altitude printed on charts.
DH = Decision Height is a distance (height) above the touchdown zone and is reserved for approaches that use radar altimetry for the missed approach point.
For the category I ILS approach, the missed point is an altitude and is listed in MSL figures. The number in parenthesis is the height above the touchdown zone and there is a difference between them. You cannot use that height for that approach, as the terrain below you is not factored at that point. The height is for information only, the altitude (DA) is the limiting factor of the approach.
So DA is the ILS MAP for CAT I approaches.
Minor differences, but still differences.
Greg
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So DA is the ILS MAP for CAT I approaches.
From the US Controller/Pilot Glossary:
DECISION HEIGHT- With respect to the operation of aircraft, means the height at which a decision must be made during an ILS, MLS, or PAR instrument approach to either continue the approach or to execute a missed approach.
(http://www.faa.gov/airports%5Fairtraffic/air%5Ftraffic/publications/atpubs/PCG/D.HTM)
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DECISION ALTITUDE/DECISION HEIGHT [ICAO]- A specified altitude or height (A/H) in the precision approach at which a missed approach must be initiated if the required visual reference to continue the approach has not been established.
Note 1: Decision altitude [DA] is referenced to mean sea level [MSL] and decision height [DH] is referenced to the threshold elevation.
Note 2: The required visual reference means that section of the visual aids or of the approach area which should have been in view for sufficient time for the pilot to have made an assessment of the aircraft position and rate of change of position, in relation to the desired flight path
Right above from where you quoted. Sure the numbers for the DH are printed, but that can't be verified because the terrain wasn't taken into account if using a radar altimeter.
Greg
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Ha... it appears as if I turned this subject into a game of semantics and that was not my intent. Sorry 'bout that.
I was attempting to point out that the DH is "officially" defined as a point at which the missed starts, which if I had read your previous post correctly, you suggested it didn't.
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oh please... carry on! i'm finding this interesting reading as I have very little knowledge about flying an aircraft, except for the very basics. I'm very much a newbie so reading all this terminology and semantics is fascinating!
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My apologies, as well.
Okay, Peter, i see what you're saying. I neglected to reread my previous posts.
The DH is indeed where the missed starts, but not on all approaches.
When you read this chart (at the bottom): what are the minimums?
For the S-ILS, I see a DA of 928 MSL. The 200 is the height above the touchdown. Because the terrain is not factored in, it's not technically a DH. If it said sometime like: RA 200, then it would be a DH.
I know it sounds nit-picky, and i apologize, but i was taught to always pay attention to the details.
I appreciate the challenge, i really do enjoy researching items when a question is brought up.
TO cap my post, yes, the DH is one possible MAP for an ILS.
Thanks,
Greg
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For the S-ILS, I see a DA of 928 MSL. The 200 is the height above the touchdown. Because the terrain is not factored in, it's not technically a DH. If it said sometime like: RA 200, then it would be a DH.
Sorry Greg but I'm not buying it. First of all the definition you quoted is an ICAO definition, Peter's was for US utilization. Secondly if terrain or a radar altimeter were integral parts of the Decision Height concept it would be specified in the definition PJ quoted. I understand what you're saying, and I'm sure you've been taught these things, but Peter and I already passed the instrument written and I'm with him on this one.
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I hope i didn't sound condescending as that wasn't my intent.
Is it possible that DA is a fairly new term. That's all i've read in my books (Rod Machado).
I'm going to keep searching for now. I can't remember where, but swear i remember reading that there's is a difference between DA and DH.
Thanks,
Greg
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Greg,
you are correct a DA is a msl alt used on CAT 1 ils approaches, cat 1 ils do not have a DH.
Cat 2 ils has a DH which is a agl alt,
Cat 3 ils or at least the cat 3c dose not have a DH but has a minimum rvr value to fly the approach.
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BUF does not have CAT II minimums. ROC does though.
Thanks,
Greg
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Cat 2 ils has a DH which is a agl alt, if you have a copy of the ils 23 at buf and the cat 2 ils 23 for buf you will see the diffence in the minimums .
Where are you seeing an ILS CAT II for BUF? Perhaps the runway expansion there last summer invalidated that approach?
I just checked my Jepp Charts and the NACO site and couldn't locate the current chart for a CAT II ILS approach. Here's the NACO link:
http://www.naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/online/d_tpp
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well they use to have one
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"Used to" is the key word (which explains the ALSF-2 for RWY 23). BUF does not have a CAT II approach (at least any more).
Thanks,
Greg
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Is it possible that DA is a fairly new term.
Greg, it appears that we are both right, however you were on to something above.
I queried an FAA TERPster (those responsible for building and maintaining instrument approaches in the US, among other duties), who responded that "DA" is ICAO and the new FAA, whereas "DH" was the old FAA. At the time of the old FAA, DH was interchangeable with DA, which validated my and Jim's teachings. Now, though, is apparently a period of transition to the new FAA, which validates your teachings. I guess this is comparable to the transition from the acronym "SID" (standard instrument departure) to "DP" (departure procedure) which occurred several years ago.
Jepp Charts, which is my provider of terminal charts, cheats by listing the DA as DA(H) on their charts. :)
In the end I guess I need to start adopting the "new" FAA, since it was pointed out to me that there is now an effort by the FAA to try to distinguish between the two.
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Further proof that the FAA (US) is moving towards a distinction between DA and DH. From the latest FAA Instrument Procedures Handbook, which incidentally was just updated 2/2007 but not yet available for purchase (that I could see).
From page 5-18, as linked here: http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/instrument_procedures_handbook/ (http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/instrument_procedures_handbook/)
MINIMUM DESCENT ALTITUDE, DECISION ALTITUDE, AND DECISION HEIGHT
DA is currently used on RNAV approach charts with vertical descent guidance.
DA will replace DH for Category I precision IAPs. MDA and DA are referenced
to MSL and measured with a barometric altimeter. CAT II and III approach
DHs are referenced to AGL and measured with a radio altimeter.
Although the TERPster whom I asked about this admitted that the quote above is flat out wrong with regards to CAT III approaches and misleading with regards to CAT II approaches (DA/DH is still considered MSL on CAT II with RA being the acronym for AGL height as published on the CAT II IAPs).
Apparently, it is still a work in progress but one things for certain, Greg - You won't go wrong on the practical test with the knowledge you possess. Good luck on it and again, be sure to post your practical test experience to this site. I will be interested in reading how it went.
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Thanks Peter. I'm going insane because the written is this Saturday. I'm taking multiple practice tests per day.
I appreciate the challenge that was here. Meaning: i was constantly referencing among books, especially the regulations and the AIM. I saw it as a challenge to find the correct answer.
Figures it was a new term. Many of the "older guys" (no offense intended) at my airport still use DA and DH interchangeably. However, two CFIIs (both airline pilots) said there was a difference between the two terms.
I'm glad we figured out the correct answer. If this was what the change in definition of DA and DH was like, i can't even begin to imagine what the airspace change was like!
Thanks again and i will post it!
Thanks,
Greg
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well they use to have one
Hey, ogogog - Is that you in the picture you are using as your avatar? Or is that someone else?
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Thanks Peter. I'm going insane because the written is this Saturday. I'm taking multiple practice tests per day.
I didn't realize you hadn't taken your written yet. From a previous post of yours, I got the impression that you were finishing up and aiming for the practical exam sometime mid-March.
Reading of your anxiety reminded me of the many lunches I spent at my computer logged into Sporty's website, taking instrument practice test after instrument practice test. The work eventually paid off as I scored a 98 on the real written, which was higher than the private written I took the previous year.
I appreciate the challenge that was here. Meaning: i was constantly referencing among books, especially the regulations and the AIM. I saw it as a challenge to find the correct answer.
Participating in these types of forums and aviation-based news groups is an excellent way to retain and/or grow your aviation "book smarts." You will find that there are times post-instrument rating where you might not recall the answer to every instrument question you encounter, but the exercise of researching it will become easier and more quickly yield the answers you may have forgotten.
I found that the information I researched well after flying IFR for many hours was more effortlessly retained, as it was more applicable to the IFR flight experiences I had accumulated to that point.
The point is to remain active in the aviation learning process and read many aviation trade magazines, and of course fly IFR often. Living in the Northeast US and downwind of the Great Lakes, you shouldn't have any problem finding benign but challenging IFR conditions.
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Agree 100% with you about the learning post-checkride.
I take the written 1030AM at DKK Saturday. I planning my checkride for the 31st of March, my 17th birthday. It'll be a PPL and IR all in one checkride!
Should be interesting!
Greg
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well they use to have one
Hey, ogogog - Is that you in the picture you are using as your avatar? Or is that someone else?
thats Gus Grissom
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I heard a pilot ask Arnie the other day if the ILS 13L still works since it was dark and everybody was just maintaining visual separation on the Canarsie approach, or slowing to lowest practical on a busy night of departures and arrivals that same runway.
Arnie replied that it works but he's seen it twice in 3 years...that took me back to a nice old memory. Returning from London sometime in the mid 90's, I have a vivid memory of a straight in approach to what i know now to be 13R (probably ILS) with a parallel 744 just a little ahead of us on the left side. Below us? NYC, and the twin towers...don't think I'm going to get an approach like that anymore.
But a Canarsie approach is always fun...can usually catch a few passengers on the right side of the aircraft not quite understanding/scared how their plane is supposed to touchdown on a runway so close to them yet perpendicular.
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THink that's bad...try National airport or the old Kai Tak!
Greg
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I used to fly into Kai Tak a few times a year in the 80's. I was in Hong Kong last week and indeed missed the old days!! YouTube has some great footage of landings at Kai Tak.
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Indeed they do!
Greg