Author Topic: JFK GND getting upset  (Read 50006 times)

Offline knish1231

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JFK GND getting upset
« on: October 28, 2006, 10:11:13 AM »
I caught this last night when listening to JFK ground.  Around 8:30PM it seemed like the scnner was not scanning all of the frequencies but was stuck on just one. 

First ETD503 gives the controller some problems, then Asiana 222 does not help the situation.  Lastly I threw in UA017 comes on to bust the controllers chops some more.  It just was not this controllers good night.

I cut out all of the other traffic.  Hope you enjoy.

Thanks,
Pete



Offline RayZor

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Re: JFK GND getting upset
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2006, 10:32:16 AM »
What was that yelling in the background at about 3:04?

Offline knish1231

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Re: JFK GND getting upset
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2006, 10:34:12 AM »
I don't know, but it did catch my attention.  i was not listening to any other frequency.

Pete

Offline PHL Approach

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Re: JFK GND getting upset
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2006, 12:20:16 PM »
Sounded like someone on another position was letting out some frustration off frequency.

Offline Squawk 7700

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Re: JFK GND getting upset
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2006, 03:05:23 PM »
Yeah, I heard the yelling in the background too?
I "feel" for the pilots, that controller needs to go to anger management class.
Great recording, thanks for sharing.
Feeder:
KHWD Ground/Tower
KOAK Del/Gnd/Twr
KSFO NORCAL App Rwy 28L/R
KSFO Tower/Ground
NORCAL Approach (KOAK)
NORCAL Departure (KSFO/KOAK)
KSJC NORCAL Apr#2
ZOA Oakland Center (35/40/41)
RJTT App/Dep
RJTT Tokyo Control
RJTT Twr/TCA + Ground

Offline Fryy

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Re: JFK GND getting upset
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2006, 09:13:02 PM »
Yeah, I heard the yelling in the background too?
I "feel" for the pilots, that controller needs to go to anger management class.

yeah but anger managment wouldnt be any funner than yelling and throwing and kicking and breaking things would it? :-D :x :|

Offline Yankee

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Re: JFK GND getting upset
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2006, 06:50:18 PM »
I think this is the same guy "buzzing" both Iberia and Singapore Cargo earlier  :evil:

Anyway, I tought from the way he talked that the ".. next time, be polite with me OK?!" from the pilot kinda made him loosen up a little.. I'm more interessted in what the yelling in the background came out for  :-P

Offline flyer_d

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Re: JFK GND getting upset
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2006, 11:44:56 AM »
More B.S. from JFK ground (see prior thread) . . . .

The controller asked "where do you park" and the pilot responded with the answer to that question ("bravo 28").  (To see that this tells the controller where he's going, see http://www.panynj.gov/aviation/jtframe.htm .  In fact, the gate is right under the control tower.)

The controller then says "the taxiway; the letter!" and "what taxiway do you enter the ramp?"  Frankly, I don't know that I would understand what he is asking with those communications, especially if I just answered the question of where I was parking, and this pilot doesn't understand either.  The really annoying part is that it is clear the pilot doesn't undersand this communication, and the controller just keeps repeating the same non-standard phrase "what taxiway do you enter the ramp?" with increasing aggitation.  That's plainly not helpful.  If the pilot doesn't understand, maybe he should rephrase?  Nah, yelling is always helpful.

It only gets worse.  What is "turn right here"?  And what is "get with it"?  And how the h_ll is the pilot supposed to know whether Hotel will be open?  Ugh . . .

Offline Acey

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Re: JFK GND getting upset
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2006, 07:55:47 PM »
"what taxiway do you enter the ramp?"

A few things. How do you suggest this be rephrased?  Also, I didn't really notice an increase in volume, perhaps only when the pilot pointlessly said he was going to "make a report".  Forgive the controller for not using perfect phraseology, though I don't know what that would be in this situation.  Seems pretty standard since they ask pretty much every pilot which taxiway they're going in. Seems, also, that the pilot is suppoed to know that Ground has control over the taxiways.  I find it odd that people are so quick to forgive pilots that don't understand English and essential operational procedures. 

Offline Pygmie

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Re: JFK GND getting upset
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2006, 08:03:25 PM »
The controller asked "where do you park" and the pilot responded with the answer to that question ("bravo 28").  (To see that this tells the controller where he's going, see http://www.panynj.gov/aviation/jtframe.htm .  In fact, the gate is right under the control tower.)

That doesn't necessarily tell the controllers where he is parking.  If you look at that link you provided, there are 2 B23's.  One for Terminal 4, the other for Terminal 8.  Also, if you listen to the JFK feeds, they ask most aircraft what taxiway they're going into the ramp on.

Offline phat_farm

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Re: JFK GND getting upset
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2006, 11:19:01 PM »
at least he didn't go STOP YOUR PLANE!!!  :-D
Live life like its your last day on earth!

Offline flyer_d

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Re: JFK GND getting upset
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2006, 09:57:56 AM »
at least he didn't go STOP YOUR PLANE!!!  :-D

Actually, he did later in the clip.

Offline flyer_d

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Re: JFK GND getting upset
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2006, 09:58:58 AM »
The controller asked "where do you park" and the pilot responded with the answer to that question ("bravo 28").  (To see that this tells the controller where he's going, see http://www.panynj.gov/aviation/jtframe.htm .  In fact, the gate is right under the control tower.)

That doesn't necessarily tell the controllers where he is parking.  If you look at that link you provided, there are 2 B23's.  One for Terminal 4, the other for Terminal 8.  Also, if you listen to the JFK feeds, they ask most aircraft what taxiway they're going into the ramp on.

Nope.  Terminal 4 is international arrivals (except for some specific exceptions that don't apply here).

Offline flyer_d

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Re: JFK GND getting upset
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2006, 10:25:50 AM »
"what taxiway do you enter the ramp?"

A few things. How do you suggest this be rephrased?

Well, with all respect, that's not my job.  Also, see below my last comment regarding procedures.

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Also, I didn't really notice an increase in volume, perhaps only when the pilot pointlessly said he was going to "make a report".

I disagree, but I suppose that's in the ear of the listener.

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Forgive the controller for not using perfect phraseology, though I don't know what that would be in this situation.

No, I won't, particularly if this really is "standard."  Any standard procedure needs well know standard phrases and procedures.

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Seems pretty standard since they ask pretty much every pilot which taxiway they're going in.

I have reviewed all AFD information on JFK and significant supplemental information not in the AFD, and I have never seen any discussion of this procedure.  Indeed, it is ground's responsibility to select appropriate taxiways.  If someone can point to an official FAA publication to the contrary, please do.

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Seems, also, that the pilot is suppoed to know that Ground has control over the taxiways.

Right.  Which is why the pilot was confused when the controller asked him to select his own taxiway.

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I find it odd that people are so quick to forgive pilots that don't understand English and essential operational procedures.

Not the point (even if it is a legitimate observation, which it is).  I understand English and had reviewed JFK procedures (before listening to the clip) and I did not know what he was talking about.  Also, your statement presumes that it is an essential operational procedure.  If it is, in fact, an essential procedure, then the tower/FAA should establish and publish procedures.  For example, I am aware that landing pilots are expected to specify their hangar.  I have seen that published in JFK guidance.  Even if that applies to commercial ops (not sure; didn't have cause to check), that would have been fulfilled by the pilot's first response (gate number).

If you're interested in these issues of procedures and phraseology, I highly recommend Don Brown's columns on AvWeb.  http://www.avweb.com/news/sayagain/

Offline Mazrim Taim

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Re: JFK GND getting upset
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2006, 12:48:53 PM »
For some reason I can not hear the clip. I click on it and it opens but then the clip never plays.

Offline puka54

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Re: JFK GND getting upset
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2006, 02:20:14 PM »

Offline Acey

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Re: JFK GND getting upset
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2006, 03:35:33 PM »
If you're interested in these issues of procedures and phraseology, I highly recommend Don Brown's columns on AvWeb.  http://www.avweb.com/news/sayagain/

As a matter of fact, I read Don's column every month.  Great stuff in there.  :-)

And by the way, there's no offical document saying "what taxiway do you enter the ramp".  I do agree with you that this is not standard, but my point is this: are the procedures at Kennedy radically going to change any time soon? No one seems to have a problem with it except for the occasional foreign pilot.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2006, 03:39:11 PM by Adrian8 »

Offline RayZor

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Re: JFK GND getting upset
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2006, 05:56:18 PM »
at least he didn't go STOP YOUR PLANE!!!  :-D

Hehe, yeah but in that incident, I thought the controller was completely justified in saying so.  The pilot could not understand what to do or say at all and was endangering other aircraft. 

Offline Miyridian

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Re: JFK GND getting upset
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2006, 06:41:55 AM »

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Seems pretty standard since they ask pretty much every pilot which taxiway they're going in.

I have reviewed all AFD information on JFK and significant supplemental information not in the AFD, and I have never seen any discussion of this procedure.  Indeed, it is ground's responsibility to select appropriate taxiways.  If someone can point to an official FAA publication to the contrary, please do.


It is the pilot's responsibility to tell ATC where he is parking after landing - ATC then tells him how to get there. However, this need not be a specific gate - it could be a ramp or apron. ATC would tell the pilot how to get to that apron, and then the plane would be directed to the appropriate spot on that ramp or apron by the ramp controllers or marshallers. That's how it works at JFK - the airplane tells ATC where it needs to go (to enter the ramp on a certain taxiway), and ATC directs the plane until it enters the ramp, at which point it is under the control of the ramp controllers (who are also responsible for making sure that there will be space for the plane once it actually gets onto the ramp - you'll occasionally hear planes call up JFK ground to say that they have to hold for an airplane or two to leave the ramp before they can taxi in).

Some sort of mention of this should be included on the charts for JFK, in my opinion. It may be standard procedure, and those who fly to the airport regularly know how things work, but it would be very minimal effort to add a few words to the chart, and it would clear up 99% of these confusions.

Offline digger

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Re: JFK GND getting upset
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2006, 02:19:36 PM »
To address the question of phraseology, being proper or not--

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NOTE-
Controllers may, after first using the prescribed phraseology for a specific procedure, rephrase the message to ensure the content is understood. Good judgment shall be exercised when using nonstandard phraseology.

Source: http://www.faa.gov/ATPUBS/ATC/Chp1/atc0102.html That's in "Chapter one, Section 2", "1-2-5 Annotations", part "g" of Order 7110.65R http://www.faa.gov/ATPUBS/ATC/INDEX.HTM. (That's the rulbook for controllers. Very interesting reading if you like this site.)

That having been said, I didn't think the controller was making himself clear either in repeating, "what taxiway do you enter the ramp?" After being misunderstood the first time, he could've changed it to "what taxiway do you usually use to enter the ramp?", and I think he'd have gotten his meaning through, (without further tying up his own frequency.) In failing to do that, I'd question how good his judgement was.

Offline frantzy

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Re: JFK GND getting upset
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2006, 09:53:56 PM »
I agree and based only on the clips I've heard on this site (plus experience as a commercial pilot), I think some JFK controllers have some serious self-pity.   Other airports with more a/c movements and a mix of foreign pilots seem to handle the challenges without blowing their lids (indeed they're usually quite friendly).

Not to mention that when a foreign pilot is having a communication issue, having some obnoxious New Yorker yelling at him will only make the issue worse.  Slightly rephrasing, speaking slowly, and staying calm would be more effective IMHO. 
Of course, that is hard to do if you feel pilots are out to make your life miserable.

Something tells me Boston John would have a better way to cope  :mrgreen:

Offline RayZor

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Re: JFK GND getting upset
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2006, 09:59:19 PM »
Something tells me Boston John would have a better way to cope  :mrgreen:

New ATC motto: WWBJD?

Offline frantzy

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Re: JFK GND getting upset
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2006, 11:39:14 PM »
Something tells me Boston John would have a better way to cope  :mrgreen:

New ATC motto: WWBJD?

Exactly!  :-D

Offline mpflood

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Re: JFK GND getting upset
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2006, 10:11:31 AM »
wwbjd        I love it!

Offline juice19

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Re: JFK GND getting upset
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2006, 12:31:18 AM »
I love the Monday morning quarterbacking on this website.  Its so easy to have all the answers when your able to sit home and listen to it on your computer, especially when 90% of the other traffic has been edited out.  I'm not agreeing with yelling, but I am sure it can very frustrating at times. The answer to the question "what taxiway do you need to enter the ramp?" should not be "we park at gate B24."  Parking procedures are not  the same at every airport.  JFK has 9 individual terminals unlike other airports that may have one big terminal.  (then the gate number would be helpful).  Asking a pilot what taxiway he "usually" enters the ramp would make no sense since their gate could change day by day and that pilot may not have been at JFK for years.  So remember, things, I am sure, are not always as cut and dry as they may seem when listening to an edited mpeg on this website.